To politic or not to politic...

[JTB]

And what set of sins are being fought by what set of sins? Please clarify.

On the left you have the sins of abdicating personal responsibility (which includes abortion), entitlement and enablement, amorality, a/poly-theism,...

On the right you have the sins of mammon worship, cheating workers, abandonment of the poor and sick, lies and hypocrisies...

I'm not going to vote for those who fight abortion while they work to make sure that child grows up in poverty and sickness.


I won't vote for a lesser evil.

 

[Gojira]

On the left you have the sins of abdicating personal responsibility (which includes abortion), entitlement and enablement, amorality, a/poly-theism,...

On the right you have the sins of mammon worship, cheating workers, abandonment of the poor and sick, lies and hypocrisies...

I'm not going to vote for those who fight abortion while they work to make sure that child grows up in poverty and sickness.


I won't vote for a lesser evil.

None of those things you listed are conservative values. That sounded more like CNN or Guardian propaganda.

Secondly, by voting for no one, you allow the Godless to take hold of power.

Thirdly, no human being is going to be perfect. That doesn't mean they should not be supported politically. That standard can never be met by any human. God certainly knew that when He wrote through Paul that HE instituted governments to keep the peace in a fallen world. So, you are without excuse.

 

[Gojira]

I call it the height of hypocrisy

Well of course they're being wholeheartedly disingenuous, but I prefer desperation because it shows that our enemies are scared. And, fear -- as opposed to their self-satisfied smugness -- is what they need to feel.

 

[Gojira]

Folks, voting and getting behind a party is not about supporting perfect holiness. No ruler in Israel was perfect. Even the priests had to offer sacrifices for their own sins. Did God tell the people to not obey them or support them?

With perfection as your standard, you can never get rid of the rising evil we see. Abandoning the good because perfection is all you will accept is a losing strategy. It surrenders all chances of reducing the evil we see to our enemy, the devil, who's idea of "perfection" will be realized. And, when his perverse and tyrannical order takes a nation over, you will have no one to blame but yourselves.

Do you apply this standard in your own life? Whatever you do, never get married since you're a sinner and can never make a perfect husband or wife. Don't find a job, because you can never be that employee that perfectly exemplifies doing your work as unto the Lord.

More good means less bad. Less bad means more good. That's the best we can hope for in the civilian governments God has instituted until His return, so we'd better shed off this foolish thinking that it's a higher good to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[ZNP]

Well of course they're being wholeheartedly disingenuous, but I prefer desperation because it shows that our enemies are scared. And, fear -- as opposed to their self-satisfied smugness -- is what they need to feel.

perhaps that is what they want you to think. Basic Art of War -- appear desperate when the plan is falling into place.

 

[JohnDB]

More good means less bad. Less bad means more good. That's the best we can hope for in the civilian governments God has instituted until His return, so we'd better shed off this foolish thinking that it's a higher good to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Nope.
As sin abounds grace abounds more.
So the first premise is wrong.

Then there's this thing about "hope".
Ok we worship the God of hope...in God we place our hope. If our hope is anywhere else it will fail.

Nobody has suggested that we throw away our Government. The negative talk about our political leaders is also not of God...which is a key ingredient for electing new leaders. Also...I am often/always wrong with my man-centered wisdom. Can't help it...I am human even if I aspire to be more. Collectively we humans have the worst record with our collective wisdom. Which is what voting is all about. Yes, God sets up leaders and deposes them. So Government is something God chooses. It's a lot of hutzpah to think that you or I can do something to thwart God.

 

[I_am_Canadian]

Nope.
As sin abounds grace abounds more.
So the first premise is wrong.

Then there's this thing about "hope".
Ok we worship the God of hope...in God we place our hope. If our hope is anywhere else it will fail.

Nobody has suggested that we throw away our Government. The negative talk about our political leaders is also not of God...which is a key ingredient for electing new leaders. Also...I am often/always wrong with my man-centered wisdom. Can't help it...I am human even if I aspire to be more. Collectively we humans have the worst record with our collective wisdom. Which is what voting is all about. Yes, God sets up leaders and deposes them. So Government is something God chooses. It's a lot of hutzpah to think that you or I can do something to thwart God.

In short..., If you don't like the current government get off your behind and run for office yourself.

 

[JohnDB]

In short..., If you don't like the current government get off your behind and run for office yourself.

That would have an even worse result.
I'm not capable or able to even start the task. Nor would I even want the task if I was. I just want a peaceful life filled with my daily tasks.

 

[JTB]

None of those things you listed are conservative values. That sounded more like CNN or Guardian propaganda.

Secondly, by voting for no one, you allow the Godless to take hold of power.

Thirdly, no human being is going to be perfect. That doesn't mean they should not be supported politically. That standard can never be met by any human. God certainly knew that when He wrote through Paul that HE instituted governments to keep the peace in a fallen world. So, you are without excuse.

Conservatives codified income inequality. Conservatives strip the poor of social nets and the sick of health care. Conservatives continue to back lies even after they are proven to be lies. Conservatives take hypocrisy to new levels. These are not liberal talking points, they are long established facts. But that's part of the conservative agenda. The facts be damned, full speed ahead.

Ever read Daniel or Revelation? Got news for you. The Godless DO take hold of power. And voting conservative isn't going to change that. The idea that one can vote their way out from under God's prophesies is ludicrous.

God ALLOWS governments and rulers to be in place. Hitler, Mousseline, all tyrants have been divinely allowed to hold office. That doesn't make them Godly.

The left deceives the world, and does so blatantly these days. They're not trying to hide it.

But the right deceives believers, and does so behind the moniker of false prophets and deceivers.

See, that's a big problem with deception. Those being deceived don't realize they are being deceived. If they did, the deception would fail.

The Bible warns us about believers being deceived in the end. The first step to overcoming that is realizing that it can - and indeed is - happening.

 

[I_am_Canadian]

That would have an even worse result.
I'm not capable or able to even start the task. Nor would I even want the task if I was. I just want a peaceful life filled with my daily tasks.

How so? Pray, you would be surprised what God can do....
Joseph was sold into slavery as a child, grew up in Pharaoh's house and became a powerful leader during one of the worst famines in Egypt's History.

Moses escaped slaughter, raised up in Pharaoh's house, murdered an Egyptian, became a fugitive, only to be appointed by God to fulfil God's promise to lead his children out of Egypt into the promise land.

A shepherd boy name David, slew a lion killed a bear, marched into a battlefield and killed Goliath the Giant, then grew up to become a king.

God still performs miracles and raises up leaders if we stop leaning on our own understanding and whole heartedly trust and follow him.

You'll never find out what kind of leader you can be unless you actually try.

Well if that's all you want... But when the wicked rule the people mourn.

Besides ask yourself one question, what if God had plans to make a leader out of you? What if on judgement day he shows you what he could have done for the country if you allowed him to use you?? What's your excuse going to be for saying no to him?

I see the complaints against ungodly rulers, I see the prayer requests for change in the world on here..... But I never see anyone wanting to do anything about it.

 

[JohnDB]

How so? Pray, you would be surprised what God can do....
Joseph was sold into slavery as a child, grew up in Pharaoh's house and became a powerful leader during one of the worst famines in Egypt's History.

Moses escaped slaughter, raised up in Pharaoh's house, murdered an Egyptian, became a fugitive, only to be appointed by God to fulfil God's promise to lead his children out of Egypt into the promise land.

A shepherd boy name David, slew a lion killed a bear, marched into a battlefield and killed Goliath the Giant, then grew up to become a king.

God still performs miracles and raises up leaders if we stop leaning on our own understanding and whole heartedly trust and follow him.

You'll never find out what kind of leader you can be unless you actually try.

Well if that's all you want... But when the wicked rule the people mourn.

Besides ask yourself one question, what if God had plans to make a leader out of you? What if on judgement day he shows you what he could have done for the country if you allowed him to use you?? What's your excuse going to be for saying no to him?

I see the complaints against ungodly rulers, I see the prayer requests for change in the world on here..... But I never see anyone wanting to do anything about it.

I'm not wealthy, nor do I have a law degree. Both are requirements for politics these days.

I also understand that God raises up the unlikely...
But I honestly don't see that happening anymore. If I was chosen to lead a small group Bible study...that would be a huge thing in my life.

I don't really care about politics or being politically correct. I'm A-Political. I understand the processes and who should do what when, where, why and how...but I don't see a place where I fit in the mess...and I have no desire to do so.

I also remember that Moses was the most miserable/humble man in Israel.

 

[I_am_Canadian]

I'm not wealthy, nor do I have a law degree. Both are requirements for politics these days.

I also understand that God raises up the unlikely...
But I honestly don't see that happening anymore. If I was chosen to lead a small group Bible study...that would be a huge thing in my life.

I don't really care about politics or being politically correct. I'm A-Political. I understand the processes and who should do what when, where, why and how...but I don't see a place where I fit in the mess...and I have no desire to do so.

I also remember that Moses was the most miserable/humble man in Israel.

I see,

Perhaps that is true, but it's a 2 way thing, first God has to call people, and the other is that people have to respond to God's calling, many are called but few are chosen.

I get it, it's one area you've chosen to stay out of, it's too bad, seems like every country on earth is in need of Godly leadership not just in the church but in government too.

 

[JTB]

I see,

Perhaps that is true, but it's a 2 way thing, first God has to call people, and the other is that people have to respond to God's calling, many are called but few are chosen.

I get it, it's one area you've chosen to stay out of, it's too bad, seems like every country on earth is in need of Godly leadership not just in the church but in government too.

God warned us repeatedly that the world will end up in the hands of the antichrist.

Is it reasonable to think that:

1. righteous people will lead us there (iow what kind of people should we expect to see running the world)

2. We can pray, vote, or stomp our feet out from under that prophecy



The Jews thot their Messiah would be a political figure who'd save them from Godless Romans

Christians are now looking for a political figure to save them from Godless liberals

It didn't work then, and it's not going to work now

 

[Gojira]

perhaps that is what they want you to think. Basic Art of War -- appear desperate when the plan is falling into place.

Maybe... but we can also overthink this too. Dems are not going to stand for pro-American causes unless they want political advantage. This year, they see a Deep Impact-style wave coming. I'd be nervous too.

 

[Gojira]

Nope.
As sin abounds grace abounds more.
So the first premise is wrong.

Then there's this thing about "hope".
Ok we worship the God of hope...in God we place our hope. If our hope is anywhere else it will fail.

Nobody has suggested that we throw away our Government. The negative talk about our political leaders is also not of God...which is a key ingredient for electing new leaders. Also...I am often/always wrong with my man-centered wisdom. Can't help it...I am human even if I aspire to be more. Collectively we humans have the worst record with our collective wisdom. Which is what voting is all about. Yes, God sets up leaders and deposes them. So Government is something God chooses. It's a lot of hutzpah to think that you or I can do something to thwart God.

Okay then. None of us should vote, we abdicate our place as the nation's sovereign rulers, and let what happens happen. What could go wrong?

None of this has anything to do with salvation from politics or bringing Heaven to Earth. That is not a conservative tenet at all. The Left believes that. They believe that we are gods who can create utopia. The conservative position is that this world is fallen, people are morally flawed, and so you create as much good as you can to minimize the evil. This involves making choices, whether that be leading our households, our businesses, or our country. And, we will be held accountable for those choices we make with what God has entrusted us with -- including how we vote.

As for grace abounding more from increased sin... I cannot believe that that's what you got from what I said. Holy crap. It is a fact: the less evil, the more good. That's not sin abounding more, but less. We vote to increase the good and mitigate the bad. Not sure what the problem is here.

 

[Gojira]

Conservatives codified income inequality.

The conservative position is that people should benefit from hard work. The harder you're willing to work, the greater ought to be your reward. That's not bad. That's good. That's called a meritocracy. That's also a very Godly position. The opposite that you appear to be advocating is indeed a Leftist position. Income equality is the result of governmental force, and dissolves incentives to work or strive or innovate. It is also a social justice position, and social justice is anti-Christian.

Thank God for income inequality.

Conservatives strip the poor of social nets and the sick of health care.

How so?

Conservatives continue to back lies even after they are proven to be lies.

Examples?

Conservatives take hypocrisy to new levels.

Such as?

These are not liberal talking points, they are long established facts.

You haven't given facts, you've given opinions, which is fine, but please back them up with at least one specific.

These actually do come right out of the Leftist handbook. It sounds like you're reading The NY Times or watching lots of CNN, Leftist rags.

Conservatives must be bad for the country. They stand in the way of the authoritarian utopia the Left wishes to usher in. So, everything the Left is guilty of they blame their opposition for. Saul Alinsky, you know. We are the fascists, when they want to control the economy (which means controlling the people). We are the racists, while they're the ones enacting racial quotas and racial segregation in our public schools -- again. We're the radicals, when they're the ones who want to redefine gender for 6yos.

So whatever you do, don't vote for conservatives lest they block this madness.

Ever read Daniel or Revelation? Got news for you. The Godless DO take hold of power. And voting conservative isn't going to change that. The idea that one can vote their way out from under God's prophesies is ludicrous.

Show me where I said that. Has anyone else said that?

You participate in public affairs because you want to minimize the evil. Well, most people do. You would rather surrender to the greater evil because you don't want to support any kind of imperfection. Sorry, God put flawed humans into power. Do you submit to your pastor? He's a sinner too.

As for Revelation, fully aware. However, you or I do not know the time. Until it is here, we are the salt of this world, preserving as much as possible. If you are going to say "Oh I know it's right around the corner, so I'm going to disengage and watch Jesus return", no where does God tell us to do that.

God ALLOWS governments and rulers to be in place. Hitler, Mousseline, all tyrants have been divinely allowed to hold office. That doesn't make them Godly.

Not sure of your point. I never said this. You really reading everything I'm saying? Did anyone else say this??

But the right deceives believers, and does so behind the moniker of false prophets and deceivers.

Show me examples.

The Bible warns us about believers being deceived in the end. The first step to overcoming that is realizing that it can - and indeed is - happening.

Deception is not about supporting flawed human candidates. But, there is great foolishness in being profoundly misinformed or in believing that it is better to let great evil take over because you don't want to get the lesser evil into power. If you fought a war like that, you'd lose.

Too often, life does not give us perfect choices. It gives us muddy ones, and I think we are to still prayerfully choose between them.

 

[JohnDB]

Okay then. None of us should vote, we abdicate our place as the nation's sovereign rulers, and let what happens happen. What could go wrong?

None of this has anything to do with salvation from politics or bringing Heaven to Earth. That is not a conservative tenet at all. The Left believes that. They believe that we are gods who can create utopia. The conservative position is that this world is fallen, people are morally flawed, and so you create as much good as you can to minimize the evil. This involves making choices, whether that be leading our households, our businesses, or our country. And, we will be held accountable for those choices we make with what God has entrusted us with -- including how we vote.

As for grace abounding more from increased sin... I cannot believe that that's what you got from what I said. Holy crap. It is a fact: the less evil, the more good. That's not sin abounding more, but less. We vote to increase the good and mitigate the bad. Not sure what the problem is here.

I have personally seen and witnessed how the Democrats have done more to promote Christian ideals than Republicans all the while saying something opposite and different to their base...and vice versa. I've seen Republicans do some things that promote Christian ideals as well...
Neither side is all evil or all good...nor is one more good than another. Even the current president has done things that directly benefited the common man who works hard...things that the last conservative president refused to do that he knew he should.

We, as a people, like still waters to function within. We don't navigate well when there is a lot of waves everywhere.

God sets up leaders and deposes them...for our benefit and not the heathen. I don't do that...I can't do that.

And as far as elections go...I minister to my small corner of the world...my friends and family. I do my part to enhance my local community with ideas and ideals and real world assistance. I make friends with everyone from policeman to homeless and all points in between. I model a Christian life and lifestyle. One different than the average pew warmer who has a wagging finger and a brow that beats everyone. That is my job that God has given me.
No one has changed their life from a sermon...but relationships can shape a person to where they will listen to a sermon...meaning that relationships do more to change a person for the good than any preacher wants to. Meaning that I need to be available to everyone across party lines and economic spectrums if I am going to affect real change. Shouting about how some politician is evil isn't going to do anything except add more evil to my community.

 

[I_am_Canadian]

God warned us repeatedly that the world will end up in the hands of the antichrist.

Is it reasonable to think that:

1. righteous people will lead us there (iow what kind of people should we expect to see running the world)

2. We can pray, vote, or stomp our feet out from under that prophecy



The Jews thot their Messiah would be a political figure who'd save them from Godless Romans

Christians are now looking for a political figure to save them from Godless liberals

It didn't work then, and it's not going to work now

I am aware of that, we can't change what scripture says is going to happen,
How ever by being active we can at least prolong life on earth, by delaying the rise of the anti Christ.

Believe me I've volunteered to run for office myself. I get it, but is it such a bad thing to want Godly leaders who could and would make the world a better place??

 

[Gojira]

I have personally seen and witnessed how the Democrats have done more to promote Christian ideals than Republicans all the while saying something opposite and different to their base...and vice versa. I've seen Republicans do some things that promote Christian ideals as well...
Neither side is all evil or all good...nor is one more good than another. Even the current president has done things that directly benefited the common man who works hard...things that the last conservative president refused to do that he knew he should.

We, as a people, like still waters to function within. We don't navigate well when there is a lot of waves everywhere.

God sets up leaders and deposes them...for our benefit and not the heathen. I don't do that...I can't do that.

And as far as elections go...I minister to my small corner of the world...my friends and family. I do my part to enhance my local community with ideas and ideals and real world assistance. I make friends with everyone from policeman to homeless and all points in between. I model a Christian life and lifestyle. One different than the average pew warmer who has a wagging finger and a brow that beats everyone. That is my job that God has given me.
No one has changed their life from a sermon...but relationships can shape a person to where they will listen to a sermon...meaning that relationships do more to change a person for the good than any preacher wants to. Meaning that I need to be available to everyone across party lines and economic spectrums if I am going to affect real change. Shouting about how some politician is evil isn't going to do anything except add more evil to my community.

I need to start pulling out of this thread as it's taking way too much time to participate in. But...

To say that there is equivalence between the Right and the Left shows ignorance of politics and recent events. The Left has become fascist. Progressivism is fascism. * When you use idiot foot soldiers to riot in our cities' streets (BLM, antifa), the same way Mussolini, Hitler and Mao did... * When your goal is to tell people what is acceptable -- and unacceptable -- thought and speech... * when you use crises to alarm a population into surrendering their freedoms (temporarily of course) to politicians crying for emergency powers... * when you want to separate children from their parents in government schools... * when you use supposedly unbiased government institutions, like the IRS and FBI, to target your political opposition... you are a fascist. Plain and simple. When your ideology is to trash the American constitution because you want to create the inverse of it (progressivism wants a powerful central gov't to have all powers assumed, with specifically enumerated limitations, the polar opposite of the American constitution)... you are a Fascist. And, none of that is coming from conservatives.

Go on, equate the two. Act in such ignorance and one day the FBI will raid your church for not obeying some gov't dictate or for not allowing a gender-dysphoric person to lead worship. Or, income equality will be forced upon the population, which is communism.

Got to move on.

 

[Gojira]

I am aware of that, we can't change what scripture says is going to happen,
How ever by being active we can at least prolong life on earth, by delaying the rise of the anti Christ.

Believe me I've volunteered to run for office myself. I get it, but is it such a bad thing to want Godly leaders who could and would make the world a better place??

No. But, this is what happens when, as I said in another thread, people are too Heavenly-minded to be any earthly good. It's also the result of being wildly misinformed about current events as well as history.

Voting a certain way, getting involved in politics or even your local school board is a way of showing love for your neighbors, as you want to make life better for them and their children. It's a type of service, as would be bringing them food or driving them to church.

It is good to allow governmental power to fall into the hands of people who want to crush our religious and other civil liberties, since the other side is flawed. Maybe not as much, but still. Voting for good and not perfect is just as wrong as voting for a purer evil. Besides, Jesus is coming tomorrow and it won't matter anyway. This is a bit sarcastic, bit still a rough summation of the thinking I've encountered here.

I've done my best here (which isn't saying much I suppose ), but there comes a point when you need to stop grinding your wheels against warped reasoning.