RAPTURE

[FreeGrace2]

At the sound of a trumpet, the bodies of the dead shall be raised up and the living shall ascend up with them into the clouds. Later, at the Second coming, the saints will return back down with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This is the Second Advent. There is only 1 resurrection for the saved.

Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Singular.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that? Greek is singular.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved. The Greek is singular.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. “when He comes” is in the singular.

The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers.

Right! Now look closely at v.23 above. Christ is the first to receive a glorified resurrected body, per Acts 26:23. In 1 Cor 15;23 the verse says in plain words that "when He comes" everyone else (the saved) will be resurrected.

 

[oyster67]

This is the Second Advent.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 is clearly a rapture event and is clearly not about us returning back to Earth with Him at His Second Coming.
Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

There is only 1 resurrection for the saved.

It is obvious that each person only needs to be resurrected once.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 is clearly a rapture event and is clearly not about us returning back to Earth with Him at His Second Coming.
Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

What evidence is there to presume that this verse is about something that occurs before the Tribulation?

It is obvious that each person only needs to be resurrected once.

But more than that. There is only 1 resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Dan 12:2, Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:4,5

Since we know from Rev 20 that the FIRST resurrection will be for saved martyrs, and there is mention of a second resurrection 1,000 years later, which is obviously the GWT judgment, that single resurrection for believers will be "when He comes" back, per 1 Cor 15:23.

This is all very straight forward. The Bible never speaks of phases of resurrection, or multiples of them. Only 1.

In fact, the word "resurrections" does not occur in Scripture regarding the saved. It treats resurrection of the saved the same way as resurrection of the unsaved. 1 each.

 

[oyster67]

What evidence is there to presume that this verse is about something that occurs before the Tribulation?

1 Thess 4:17 Tells us that we go up before we come down. You must deal with the fact that there is a go-up event that proceeds the coming-back-down event. Also, Revelation clearly places the wedding ceremony in Heaven and before the Second Coming.

Revelation 19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
.
.
.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


We return with Him after the Wedding....

Jude 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

[oyster67]

Since we know from Rev 20 that the FIRST resurrection will be for saved martyrs,

and those who are raptured. These are all part of the first resurrection. The "First Resurrection" includes all those who belong to Jesus, by definition.

 

[Mem]

and those who are raptured. These are all part of the first resurrection. The "First Resurrection" includes all those who belong to Jesus, by definition.

And there will be more martyrs to replace those resurrected?

 

[persistent]

I just spat out my beer whilst watching Crufts.

The dyslexic insomniac was up all night wondering if there really is a doG.

 

[oyster67]

And there will be more martyrs to replace those resurrected?

I presume they are referring to those beheaded during the Tribulation, i.e. "Tribulation Saints". Because they are saints, they fall into the first resurrection category as well.

 

[Mem]

I presume they are referring to those beheaded during the Tribulation, i.e. "Tribulation Saints". Because they are saints, they fall into the first resurrection category as well.

Ok, then you see this "first" as a nominally, as in namely, designated category rather than an ordinal, positionally, or cardinal, as in how many?

 

[oyster67]

Ok, then you see this "first" as a nominally, as in namely, designated category rather than an ordinal, positionally, or cardinal, as in how many?

yes

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What evidence is there to presume that this verse is about something that occurs before the Tribulation?

1 Thess 4:17 Tells us that we go up before we come down.

OK. Yes, those "alive and remain" will be caught up together with THEM and then come down. What's your point?

You must deal with the fact that there is a go-up event that proceeds the coming-back-down event.

Just did.

Also, Revelation clearly places the wedding ceremony in Heaven and before the Second Coming.

Revelation 19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Actually, not in heaven. Rev 19 is the PREPARATION for the wedding ceremony. v.7 clearly shows what is to come by the words "His wife HAS made herself ready".

Now, think about this for a sec. Since the last part of ch 19 is Jesus actually coming back, which immediately follows the wedding preparation, pre-tribbers have the wedding ceremony 7 years PRIOR to His return.

Why would John say "has made herself ready" for an event that already occurred, and 7 years before, no less. Doesn't make sense.

And one more verse to prove the ceremony cannot be in heaven.

v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Why would John write "who ARE INVITED to the wedding supper" if it had already occurred 7 years before?

He would have written something like "blessed are those who WERE invited to the wedding supper".

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [/QUOTE]
This is the Second Advent.

We return with Him after the Wedding....

Jude 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Yes, all the believers already in heaven, have been prepared for the wedding supper and do come with Christ to earth.

But you still haven't quoted a verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Since we know from Rev 20 that the FIRST resurrection will be for saved martyrs,

and those who are raptured. These are all part of the first resurrection.

Obviously all living believers on earth when He comes back will receive glorified bodies. But no verse says or even hints that they will be taken to heaven.

The "First Resurrection" includes all those who belong to Jesus, by definition.

My point all along. And all this occurs at the Second Advent.

 

[oyster67]

OK. Yes, those "alive and remain" will be caught up together with THEM and then come down. What's your point?

My point is that those who be "alive and remain" will be caught up together with THEM and then attend the wedding in Heaven during the Trib event on Earth and then come down. We must not ignore the revelation of the Revelation.

Obviously all living believers on earth when He comes back will receive glorified bodies. But no verse says or even hints that they will be taken to heaven.

Please read Revelation 19.

Rev 19 is the PREPARATION for the wedding ceremony. v.7 clearly shows what is to come by the words "His wife HAS made herself ready".

Yes. She is prepared and married and given white robes and accompanies Jesus back down to rule and reign with Him for 1000 years. Many seem to get confused when they read about the supper of the birds. Is this the source of you confusion?

Why would John say "has made herself ready" for an event that already occurred, and 7 years before, no less. Doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense when we understand what makes us ready (and when this needs to happen.) It needs to happen now.

And one more verse to prove the ceremony cannot be in heaven.

v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

And please tell me how this verse backs up your theory??? (Those who have been invited are invited.)

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This is the Second Advent.[/QUOTE]

Correct. The Rapture took place 7 years prior.

Yes, all the believers already in heaven, have been prepared for the wedding supper and do come with Christ to earth.

Amen! Yes we do come with Christ to Earth. Glad we got that straightened out. We have attended the Marriage Supper and now return as His Bride to reign with Him for 1000 years. Please give your tortured brain rest and accept the obvious and clear truth.

But even if you don't, I still love you and accept you as a brother anyway.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Rev 19 opens with heaven celebrating that the prostitute has been judged and the blood of God's servants has been avenged.
Rev 6: 9-11 has been fulfilled here. The martyrs in Rev 6 were told to wait.

Rev 19 "The blood of God's servants has been avenged" - only then is the bride said to be ready and dressed.
I can't imagine this is happening until the Great Tribulation is finished.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK. Yes, those "alive and remain" will be caught up together with THEM and then come down. What's your point?

My point is that those who be "alive and remain" will be caught up together with THEM and then attend the wedding in Heaven during the Trib event on Earth and then come down.

Could you provide the verse or verses that clearly show Jesus taking believers to heaven before the Tribulation.

This is the biggest chink in the armor of pre-tribbers. You don't have any verse that clearly shows Jesus taking ANY believers to heaven.

And, don't forget that when believers are "changed" in the air, the SINGULAR resurrection of the saved occurs at the same time.

And since Rev 20 proves that the resurrection of the saved occurs AFTER the Tribulation, you CANNOT argue for a pre-trib resurrection.

It just doesn't fly.

We must not ignore the revelation of the Revelation.

Of course not. Please don't.

Please read Revelation 19.

I have, over and over.

I said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Rev 19 is the PREPARATION for the wedding ceremony. v.7 clearly shows what is to come by the words "His wife HAS made herself ready".

Yes. She is prepared and married and given white robes and accompanies Jesus back down to rule and reign with Him for 1000 years. Many seem to get confused when they read about the supper of the birds. Is this the source of you confusion?

lol, I'm not confused at all. Rev 19 shows in clear language that the saints already IN heaven (not yet glorified) are PREPARING for the wedding. v.7 and 9. The language is clear.

FreeGrace2 said:
Why would John say "has made herself ready" for an event that already occurred, and 7 years before, no less. Doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense when we understand what makes us ready (and when this needs to happen.) It needs to happen now.

The words "has made herself ready" is clearly dealing with what is ABOUT TO HAPPEN. Not some 7 years prior.

FreeGrace2 said:
And one more verse to prove the ceremony cannot be in heaven.

v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

And please tell me how this verse backs up your theory??? (Those who have been invited are invited.)[/QUOT]
<sigh> Didn't you even read my post? I explained that what follows all the discussion about the wedding supper is Jesus' return to earth with all the not yet glorified saints who have been in heaven since they died. This return to earth is the Second Advent. And you haven't shown any verse that describes Jesus taking anyone to heaven after being glorified. How can you not see your error here?

And in that explanation I noted that IF the wedding had taken place 7 years prior, he would have written "WERE invited" and not "ARE invited".

Only because the wedding was ABOUT TO OCCUR would he have written "are invited".

FreeGrace2 said:
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
This is the Second Advent.

Correct. The Rapture took place 7 years prior.

You have no proof from Scripture. None of the pre-tribbers have EVER quoted a verse that plainly shows Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven. And that occurs AFTER the Tribulation.

Amen! Yes we do come with Christ to Earth.

If you mean those who are "alive and remain" at the Second Advent, they never were in heaven. So you are in error.

[QUOTE\]Glad we got that straightened out.

You haven't followed anything I've shown. You are stuck on the idea that Jesus takes resurrected believers to heaven, but you can't provide any verse that shows that.

We have attended the Marriage Supper and now return as His Bride to reign with Him for 1000 years.

Not possible. All believes are resurrected/changed "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent. It makes perfect sense that the wedding supper will occur when ALL the believers in history have their glorified bodies, and then reign with Him in His earthly kingdom.

Please give your tortured brain rest and accept the obvious and clear truth.

You don't have any verses that show what you think is "the obvious and clear truth". So why do you even say that?

I've shown you the obvious and clear truth from Scripture.

1. only 1 resurrection of all believers. Dan 12:2, Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23
2. that 1 resurrection occurs at the end of the Tribulation. 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4:17, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:4-6
3. the wedding supper occurs when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. Rev 19
4. The Millennial reign begins when He comes back as King. Rev 19

But even if you don't, I still love you and accept you as a brother anyway.

Same here. I don't take any disagreement with my views personally, since each person much decide for themselves what they will believe.

It just saddens me when clear Scripture is given yet believers continue to resist the truth.

 

[Blade]

"you gave up everything for me to have everything". Just part of song right now.

"And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. "

Fine linen and Righteous acts? Did anyone brake down "fine linen"? How it was org written here vs other places in the word. Seems it might not be the same. Again righteous acts. I thought our righteousness is as rags to God. The word rendered “righteousness” is not dikaiosune, the state or quality or condition of righteousness; but it is (dikaioma), a righteous act. We are not justified by our righteous acts, but it was Christ’s acts of righteousness which was responsible for the believers’ justification. God sees me through what Christ already did. I am righteous because I believe as its written in Christ..anyway. See so much is not even touched here. Books have been written on this yet some just quote a verse here and there and say.. see I proved it. Or others asking a few questions that prove nothing since ..well not sure why they won't just share. Some talk about what the Holy City is called. Some dive into how we are not the bride but the holy City is. Or its, God has His bride the city and Christ has His aka the Church. Not sure how many got married and yet you were invited to your own marriage?

This is just touching 2 or 3 verses in Rev 19. " And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. " Ooh there are those words again "fine linen, white and clean". How many times in the NT are we called to go in to battle like this? I hear in my head "turn the other cheek". Take your sword with you but.. called to go after our enemy's or is it His job and His servants as in Angels?

I don't know. See I don't tell you what I really think it means. For me when I read all this I come away with pre trib. But that is not written. Carry on

 

[oyster67]

Could you provide the verse or verses that clearly show Jesus taking believers to heaven before the Tribulation.

This is the biggest chink in the armor of pre-tribbers. You don't have any verse that clearly shows Jesus taking ANY believers to heaven.

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

And since Rev 20 proves that the resurrection of the saved occurs AFTER the Tribulation, you CANNOT argue for a pre-trib resurrection.

It just doesn't fly.

Revelation 20 is about the resurrection of the damned.

lol, I'm not confused at all. Rev 19 shows in clear language that the saints already IN heaven...

Yes. And the Saints are prepared for the wedding. That is a given. We are those Saints.

The words "has made herself ready" is clearly dealing with what is ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

Correct. She is about to get Married. This is not difficult. She will then return to Earth with her Husband.

You haven't followed anything I've shown.

There is a good reason for that.

All believes are resurrected/changed "when He comes", a clear reference to...

The rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:52
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

And then, after the Marriage, we return with Him to Earth for the Millennial Reign.

1. only 1 resurrection of all believers.

Yes. The resurrection unto life.

2. that 1 resurrection occurs at the end of the Tribulation.

Yes. And at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

3. the wedding supper occurs when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. Rev 19

No. You have it confused with the feast of the birds. (Not a pretty place or time for a wedding.)

4. The Millennial reign begins when He comes back as King. Rev 19

Yes! Three out of four ain't bad!

It just saddens me when clear Scripture is given yet believers continue to resist the truth.

Me too.

 

[oyster67]

How many times in the NT are we called to go in to battle like this?

None. That will be the dawn of a new day, my friend.

I hear in my head "turn the other cheek".

And well you should. We are still living in the Church Age. You would be mightily shocked if you ever decided to read the Old Testament.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why would John write "who ARE INVITED to the wedding supper" if it had already occurred 7 years before?

"the wedding feast / supper" is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom;

it is not what takes place up in heaven at the time of "our Rapture" (nor its purpose)

He would have written something like "blessed are those who WERE invited to the wedding supper".

The text states, "those HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect participle]"... meaning, "action completed at a specific point of time in PAST (.) with results continuing into the present (--->)" ; which tells us that at the Rev19 point in the chronology, all the "INVITING" (of the plural "guestS") has been completed. The promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age is getting ready to commence upon His RETURN to the earth, at that point. Those folks are still located on the earth upon His "return" there, and it is never said of them that they lift off the earth (or are "harpazo'd" / snatched, in any way).







[for the readers: "the Bride/Wife [singular]" (pertaining to "the MARRIAGE" itself, v.7) is distinct from "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (pertaining to the "INVITED" guests [plural]), v.9, aka the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you provide the verse or verses that clearly show Jesus taking believers to heaven before the Tribulation.

This is the biggest chink in the armor of pre-tribbers. You don't have any verse that clearly shows Jesus taking ANY believers to heaven.

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

This verse isn't about Jesus taking anyone back to heaven, as most think. Here is the whole context:

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In v.1 Jesus encourages the 11 to trust Him.
In v.2 Jesus is affirming the fact that all 11 will go to heaven when they die. After the mess with Judas, it seems obvious that their security was shaken. So Jesus confirms and affirms that they WILL go to heaven when they die.
So, in v.3 Jesus tells them He will come back. But He doesn't say He will take them back to heaven "when he comes" (1 Cor 15:23), He says "take you to be with Me". This wording is very similar to what Paul wrote in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

When Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, ALL believers will receive gorified bodies and will ALWAYS be with Him forever.

If you can find any error in my explanation, please address it and show how it is wrong.

FreeGrace2 said:
And since Rev 20 proves that the resurrection of the saved occurs AFTER the Tribulation, you CANNOT argue for a pre-trib resurrection.
It just doesn't fly.

Revelation 20 is about the resurrection of the damned.

Actually, both are mentioned. And my statement stands.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Blue words refer to martyrs in the Tribulation, who will be resurrected and reign with Christ, so an obvious reference to the Second Advent, "when he comes" back to reign. (1 Cor 15:23)

Red words refer to unbelievers in v.5 and 6. The respective resurrections are 1,000 years apart.

Yes. And the Saints are prepared for the wedding. That is a given. We are those Saints.

If you die before He returns, then yes, you will be in that preparation.

Correct. She is about to get Married. This is not difficult. She will then return to Earth with her Husband.

No. Ch 19 is about the preparation of the wedding supper, not the actual wedding itself. I showed you the wording that proves preparation. In fact, the wording prevents the event having already happened 7 years prior. Esp v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

IF the event had already occurred 7 years before, the words "who ARE invited" would have been "who WERE invited" or "who HAD BEEN invited". So obviously John was communicating what was ABOUT TO OCCUR, not something that had occurred 7 years prior.

FreeGrace2 said:
All believes are resurrected/changed "when He comes", a clear reference to...

The rapture.

Why did you cut off the rest of my sentence? Didn't want others to see it? Didn't want to have to try to refute what you can't?

The word "rapture" is OK ONLY IF it is taken as living believers will be caught up together with all the dead saints in the clouds to get their glorified bodies.

What 'rapture' cannot ever mean is being taken to heaven after resurrection. Because there are no verses that say that.

1 Corinthians 15:52
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Nothing here about being taken to heaven after receiving a glorified body.

And then, after the Marriage, we return with Him to Earth for the Millennial Reign.

There are no verses that plainly say the marriage occurs in heaven. And if that were true, it would be in direct conflict with 1 Cor 15:23, which says that resurrection will occur WHEN He comes, which is the Second Advent.

Please address this.

Yes. And at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Nope. 2 Thess 2:1 and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly PROVE that the resurrection/caught up-rapture occurs at the Second Advent.

FreeGrace2 said:
3. the wedding supper occurs when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. Rev 19

No. You have it confused with the feast of the birds. (Not a pretty place or time for a wedding.)

OK, please fill this in with actual verses so I can see what you are referring to.

Yes! Three out of four ain't bad!

What were you scoring here? You still haven't supported your claims from Scripture. You erroneously thought John 14:3 was about rapture but it said nothing about being taken to heaven. Neither does 1 Thess 4:17.