I believe both. The lost as a means to salvation and the saved as a confirmation of salvation and authentication of and enabling for ministry.
Obedience Required?
- Thread starter Wansvic
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yes don’t eat the poison fruit or you shall surely die , isnt a suggestion . It’s god stating a fact ahead of time he knew
“ if man eats the fruit of good and evil it will corrupt them and they will surely die “
so it’s something he’s saying to keep them safe that’s why he gives us stern commandments
no I believe anyones soul is saved by believing what Jesus said will save souls this includes doing what he told us to do it’s not faith if o can’t believe what the lord is telling me about salvation like “repent or you also will perish like any sinner “
that’s not something I’m willing to interpret out of the gospel or like this
“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
Luke 6:46-49
because I believe in Jesus Christ I have to consider what he’s saying and let it conform my thinking to his disciples I want house that is going to stand the test because it’s made on a solid foundation and not lip service ?
or do I want a house built upon sand hats going to crumble when the rest of faith comes ? The difference is to learn from Jesus and part of just part of what he teaches us is we can’t keep living life as if we’re just old sinners
we have to start living life as if we’re the children of God
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
“But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Matthew 9:13 KJV
“and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:47-48
“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:24-26
Repentance is something we need to acknolwedge when we sin we are serving satans Will in the world When we repent and start walking after the gospel and things Jesus is teaching us to do we’re doing gods will this is the importance of that obedience
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
( this part concludes what he’s been talking about )
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 6:16-18, 22-23 KJV
see how that’s very different from doing this
“For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
and now me explaining what that really means Paul already is explaining it before and after he keeps coming back to this part
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:12-13 KJV
the idea we do this and if we do that is essential it’s always there in the word
that’s just another way of saying “if we don’t repent we’re going to perish “ but if by the spirit we repent we’re going to live
what he’s saying is actually consistently throughout scripture
it’s not just receiving the Holy Ghost that saves us , it’s walking in the spirit that saves us
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
when the Holy Spirit comes to be with us I’m not sure why we think hen it doesn’t matter what we do what that means then is this
“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV
when we receive the Holy Spirit everything we do and say and think is being done in gods presence not just Sunday mornings but Friday nights Saturday at 2 am Wednesday at noon we’re always present in the temple when we receive the Holy Ghost the tree when Christian’s should start taking repentance seriously not when we should think “ I’m saved now it doesn’t matter what I do “ that’s the time it matters most
I understand your position. I simply disagree with salvation that is grace plus anything. I believe faith alone is sufficient. I have attempted to support that position through scripture. I have given an answer for the hope that is in me. I'm never bothered that someone doesn't believe as I do. I'm content to plant and water.
#1 Believing in Jesus involves accepting the entire gospel message presented initially on the Day of Pentecost. #3 confirms the message included the need to be baptized.
#2 pertained to Paul and Silas.
Let me see if I understand.
#1. The entire gospel message was not presented until the Day if Pentecost ?
#3 confirms a work if righteousness, water baptism.
#2. This passage only pertained to Paul and Silas?
Jesus spoke of the need to be reborn in John 3:3-5, and what is involved in Mark 16:15-16. And the NT spiritual rebirth became possible for all when Jesus, as promised, poured out the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:1-42) The message was then carried to the Samaritans, (Acts 8:12-18) and then the Gentiles, (Acts 10:43-48) and to individuals such as the Ephesus disciples. (Acts 19:1-6) These detailed records provide evidence that both water baptism in Jesus' name and being filled with the Holy Ghost are part of the NT rebirth experience.
#1 As Jesus said in Luke 24:47, repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name to all nations beginning in Jerusalem. The gospel message including the need to repent, and be baptized (water) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, in association with His death, burial and resurrection, was first presented to Jews by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. The same message was then carried to the Samaritans and then to the Gentiles.
#2 The jailer washed Paul and Silas' strips, (wounds) and they in turn baptized the jailer and his entire family.
Peter's words on the subject:
"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:31-32
Hello Wansvic, please allow me to apologize ahead of time, because this is going to be a blind post (I simply do not have the time to read through your thread right now, but I wanted to make a point about it, even though someone else in the thread has probably done so already).
The point is this, I believe that coming to a proper understanding of Acts 5:32 requires an acknowledgement and understanding of the Greek tenses that are involved. "Whom God ~hath given~" is the Greek aorist tense, while "them that ~obey~ Him" is the Greek present tense. So,
"the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him",
actually means (or paraphrases as),
"the Holy Ghost, who God had (already) given to them who are now (presently and continually) obeying Him."
As others have said, our obedience is the RESULT, not the cause of our salvation, and that we are indwelt by the Holy Ghost. IOW, our obedience is one of the many wondrous things that accompanies our salvation, and as such is a very telling sign that we are who we claim to be, Christians
As a final thought, how could we possibly choose to be obedient to Someone who we do not know or understand, whose spiritual truths and realities we, as unbelievers (as "natural" men and women) are incapable of accepting as such .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 2:14
God bless you!!
~Deut
Natural men and women are required to take steps of faith that result in God bringing about their spiritual rebirth. It is only after being born again that God leads His people into all truth via the indwelling Holy Ghost....
As a final thought, how could we possibly choose to be obedient to Someone who we do not know or understand, whose spiritual truths and realities we, as unbelievers (as "natural" men and women) are incapable of accepting as such .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 2:14
God bless you!!
~Deut
Every natural man or woman must make the choice whether to accept or reject the reality of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. And must repent, and submit to being baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin in association with His sacrifice. (Acts 2) Obedience to God's counsel is evidence of one's faith in action. (Acts 2:38-39)
The referenced scripture actually states God gives the Holy Ghost to those willing to obey: "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:31-32
We are to accept God's word as written. Remember the age old trick of the enemy is to convince people that God's word doesn't mean what it says. It is due to this tactic of the enemy that so many "church" denominations exist today.
Which act of obedience causes us to receive the Holy Spirit and forgiveness of sins? (Acts 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 10:16; Ephesians 1:13) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience (WORKS) which follow.
That's right, and I like to add in Ecclesiastes 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Once you really sit down and study the Bible from Genesis to Revelation you will see that God means what he says and can't lie. We in the last days where the great punishment comes at the end (Lake of Fire). But those of us who walk in the word of God knows that sometime we have to be chastening by God for correction. Paul says in Hebrew 12: My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
But theres an everlasting punishment for those who refuse to be corrected. Jesus says in Luke 12: 4, 5 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works
These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. We are supposed to glorify our Father in heaven, and let our light shine before men. And how do we do that? By having good works.
But theres an everlasting punishment for those who refuse to be corrected. Jesus says in Luke 12: 4, 5 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works
These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. We are supposed to glorify our Father in heaven, and let our light shine before men. And how do we do that? By having good works.
Obey what? It is obedience to the Gospel that results in the gift of the Holy Spirit being given to men. Paul calls this "the obedience of faith".
Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (Rom 16:25,26)
That this applies to obedience to the Gospel is made clear in Romans 10:16,17: But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
This alludes to the rejection of the Gospel by many Jews at that time. The ones who obeyed or responded to the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost, AD 30, received THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit. No one earns the right to have the Holy Spirit. It is only by God's grace that He is given to those who repent and believe. Therefore it is critical that Christians do not twist the truth.