Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[presidente]

nah ah
one before God's wrath and one after

Can you show me where the Bible teaches that these are two events? That's the big problem for pre-trib.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Don't give yourself a hernia bro.....

Wy would you think I might give myself a hernia. There's no heavy lifting on my end.

It's YOUR side that faces the IMPOSSIBLE task of proving that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.

Kinda like trying to life 1 ton all by yourself. That's how to give yourself a hernia. Be careful.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Right. So why did you bring up that point, as though it has anything to do with anything I've said, in this thread??

What point? You mentioned the 2 witnesses. Not me.

And regarding your mention of "TWO OT prophecies about Jesus coming to earth"... so? Who's arguing? All of us in this thread believe that.

Go back and read your own posts. You don't believe that there will be just one resurrection of the saved. And you quoted some verses, including the 2W, as evidence that there are other resurrections, as if the 2W received glorified bodies.

Do you believe that Jesus, in His role as "Prophet" (during His earthly ministry before the Cross) as well as the "NT apostles and prophets" could both be speaking of something that could be considered further revelation (sometimes referred to as progressive revelation), now being disclosed in what we call the NT? :

Give me a sample of what Jesus said that you are thinking of.

Let the readers recall, that the phrase "apostles and prophets" [written in that order] refers to NT "apostles and prophets"...

I've heard that nonsense before and I still reject it. When Paul gave his testimony several times to the authorities, he would say that he was saying nothing beyond what Moses and the prophets were saying. That's OT. So please save your breath for others, who may be gullible and believe what you claim.

Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Paul was referring to OT writers, obviously. As was Peter:

Acts 10:43 - To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 26:21-22
with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:

Rom 1:1,2
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,

Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [see also 1Cor2:7-8,9-10,16b "But God hath revealed it unto US" refers to the NT apostles and prophets]

This refers to the "mystery doctrine" which was that the Gentiles would be grafted in, which the OT prophets didn't know.

Paul, for example, said, "Behold, I SHOW you a mystery..." (not something that was already WELL-KNOWN unto the OT saints like Martha and Job and Daniel... etc). Paul was given the task of disclosing things that pertain solely to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (see Eph1:20-23 [WHEN (as to its existence)]; the concept of "rapture / snatch / caught up / harpazo [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"), not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints--Show me ANY passage telling THOSE saints or SHOWING those saints regarding "caught up / snatch / rapture / harpazo [G726]"... it's simply not there)

Please re-type this mess so that one can follow the words, rather than trying to get through all your unnecessary "enhancements" that detract from communication.

Then I'll respond. Your sentences are way too long, and all your enhancements just mess up whatever you are trying to communicate.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible is clear. There will be NO trips to heaven for believers in glorified bodies. Unless you have been holding back a verse.

What you now say in green isn't what your posts are claiming. Only when including "after the singular resurrection" makes the context clear. You weren't doing that.

Prove to me that Jesus WILL take glorified and resurrected believers to heaven.

Just one verse saying that will suffice. But so far, you've NOT done that.

Your disagreement is WITHOUT evidence.

Read my post, bud. And you have no answer to your views. No evidence at all. Just silly small quips.

You can't even show me Jesus taking anyone to heaven in a glorified body.

Yet, you STILL think He will do that? On WHAT basis? Your wish list?

There is NEVER a barrier for Jesus going to heaven or coming back. What a silly claim.


What we absolutely do know is that the OT prophesied TWO visits to earth by the Messiah.
1. as a baby to become the Suffering Servant.
2. as the King of kings to rule the earth for a Millennium.

So the words "coming of the Lord" etc refer to the SECOND Advent. He has already come the FIRST time.


Whether they do or not is totally irrelevant to your theory of of glorified believers being taken to heaven.


His ascension. So what?


The Two Witnesses, who finally did die physically. And their being "raised up" isn't a glorified resurrection, or the Bible would have said so. They simply go back to heaven, when they have been since Jesus took all the residents of Paradise to heaven when He went up.


Uh, aren't you aware that this is AFTER the Millennial reign, and the present heaven and earth have been melted and there will be a new heaven and earth?? When the new earth is created, the NJ comes down from heaven to earth.

That isn't even close to any rapture notion.

See? Every time you think you have a verse or several that support your presumptions, I explain them properly and show you that your presumptions are in error.

You're welcome.

Bro......since when is laying in the street dead for 3.5 days, a voice from heaven saying COME UP HITHER, and being taken up IN A CLOUD of Shekinah glory, all of this while your enemies behold it, typical of Christians dying and their spirit going to meet the Lord?

Your theory is Looney Tunes bro.......

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW -
TheDivineWatermark said:
Right. So why did you bring up that point, as though it has anything to do with anything I've said, in this thread??

What point? You mentioned the 2 witnesses. Not me.

Go back and read your own posts. You don't believe that there will be just one resurrection of the saved. And you quoted some verses, including the 2W, as evidence that there are other resurrections, as if the 2W received glorified bodies.

"What point?" The point you brought up about His "appearing" to Paul on the road is not a "coming".
I never made that point (I've NEVER stated such a thing), and I have no clue why you are addressing ME about such a point (since I wasn't saying anything regarding such an idea)... and then forgetting "what point" you are even making.

Let the readers judge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bro......since when is laying in the street dead for 3.5 days, a voice from heaven saying COME UP HITHER, and being taken up IN A CLOUD of Shekinah glory, all of this while your enemies behold it, typical of Christians dying and their spirit going to meet the Lord?

Who said it was typical? Not me.

Of course it's not typical. But it is also NOT a GLORIFIED RESURRECTION.

But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.

But you'll just be wasting your time, since the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.

Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.

Your theory is Looney Tunes bro.......

Look.in.mirror. Dude.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"What point?" The point you brought up about His "appearing" to Paul on the road is not a "coming".

OK, now I have some context. Why you guys make statements but leave out context is hardly helpful.

I brought that up to show that the Bible doesn't count that as a "coming" because the OT never prophesied that.

The ONLY 2 prophecies about Jesus coming to earth are the first and second advents. I've already given what each one was about and since nobody disputed it, I guess you are agreeing with me.

When Jesus comes back, there will be THE resurrection of the saints. 1 Cor 15:23.

Or, go ahead and try to shred that verse to make it say something else.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I go to prepare a place for you, I will take you to Myself that where I am you might be also.

... He wasn't going to Jerusalem

And may the readers note:


--"I go TO PREPARE a place for you"


...is not the same thing as saying,


--[what He will say to the Sheep [the righteous] of the nations, re: the earthly MK age] "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" used of others elsewhere)] the foundation of the world"







See the clear distinction? "I GO TO PREPARE" and "HAVING BEED PREPARED... FROM the foundation of the world" are not saying the same things, but very distinct things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And may the readers note:
--"I go TO PREPARE a place for you"

That was fulfilled when Jesus ascended to heaven after His resurrection. He was assuring the 11 that they would go to heaven.

[QUOE]...is not the same thing as saying,


--[what He will say to the Sheep [the righteous] of the nations, re: the earthly MK age] "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" used of others elsewhere)] the foundation of the world"[/QUOTE]
Who knows what you are even saying here, what with all your "enhancements" and nonsense. Can't you just type like a normal person types?

What is clear is that Jesus fulfilled that promise when He ascended to the Father.

See the clear distinction?

There is nothing clear in your long sentences with all those distracting "enhancements".

"I GO TO PREPARE" and "HAVING BEED PREPARED... FROM the foundation of the world" are not saying the same things, but very distinct things.

So? Can't you just explain what you think is distinctly different?

Just making a claim is lame. Explain yourself.

 

[cv5]

Who said it was typical? Not me.

Of course it's not typical. But it is also NOT a GLORIFIED RESURRECTION.

But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.

But you'll just be wasting your time, since the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.

Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.


Look.in.mirror. Dude.

Matt 27:32-33
And the graves opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And what did this group do post-resurrection? Go back to their families, tentmaking, fishing and herds and flocks? I seriously doubt it.

Matt 26:32
But after I am risen again (g1453), I will go before you to Galilee.

If message board gaffes were dollars, you would be a millionaire by now.....

 

[cv5]

But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.

the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.

Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.

Oh really? So what is that observed in Matt 17:5 Luke 9:35 etc? An evening fog rolling in?
Oh........by the way this was in conjunction with a glorification event. Just thought I would mention that......

 

[presidente]

@TheDivineWatermark @cv5

Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour.

If the Second Coming were to come 7 years after this extra half-Second Coming in pre-trib eschatology, then people would be able to count of seven years from the rapture. and know the day and hour.

 

[cv5]

@TheDivineWatermark @cv5

Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour.

If the Second Coming were to come 7 years after this extra half-Second Coming in pre-trib eschatology, then people would be able to count of seven years from the rapture. and know the day and hour.

That news is about 2000 years old bro.....
Of course pre-tribbers have the answer to this and all other post-tribber dilemmas, confusion, and anxieties.

 

[GaryA]

A little story for you:
I know you say you are a "historicist", but at any rate, I attended a full-blown preterist "Church" a few times a long long time ago.
I figured out pretty quickly that it was a cult. Guilt-tripping, psychological beat downs, control freaks. You know the story. As for the Bible they were quite literally 100% wrong 100% of the time. As far as I could tell, they were all pretty much going to hell in a handbasket.

Anyways....have a nice evening "not an elder" guy.

What is all of this supposed to be - an insinuation of some kind?

Fortunately, I don't care enough to be concerned - just curious more than anything.

(I am just trying to better understand your manner of communicating.)

What I found funny about what you said had to do with the connection between 'long-winded' and "being an elder" - I made no indication whatsoever about having - or not having - 'ambitions' to be an elder...

I could possibly actually be an elder at my church and still find it funny.

The intent of your ending comment above seems to be an insult or "put-down" - why do you say things like this?

This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier.

Again - not everything you say, but a lot of it.

Why can't you be more agreeable with other members of CC? Or, do you just consider all of us to be 'heathen'?

(Of course, with the exception of @TheDivineWatermark and others who are in sufficient agreement with your views.)

Well - "enough said [for now] I guess" - was this 'lecture' as "long-winded" as the previous one?

 

[cv5]

What is all of this supposed to be - an insinuation of some kind?

Fortunately, I don't care enough to be concerned - just curious more than anything.

(I am just trying to better understand your manner of communicating.)

What I found funny about what you said had to do with the connection between 'long-winded' and "being an elder" - I made no indication whatsoever about having - or not having - 'ambitions' to be an elder...

I could possibly actually be an elder at my church and still find it funny.

The intent of your ending comment above seems to be an insult or "put-down" - why do you say things like this?

This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier.

Again - not everything you say, but a lot of it.

Why can't you be more agreeable with other members of CC? Or, do you just consider all of us to be 'heathen'?

(Of course, with the exception of @TheDivineWatermark and others who are in sufficient agreement with your views.)

Well - "enough said [for now] I guess" - was this 'lecture' as "long-winded" as the previous one?

Lighten up bro. Everyone is pretty friendly around here. A little jesting helps keep everyone at ease. This is not a monastery lol.

 

[GaryA]

All you talk about is Jesus taking "the church" to heaven.

Because, now pay attention this time, all you guys talk about is "the church" being raptured. When you say that it sounds as if the whole church, which is obviously wrong, since MOST of "the church" is already in heaven.

The 'pre-trib' view does in fact have "the whole church" being raptured together - at least up to the point that is assumed to be when it will take place.

However,...

However, at the resurrection, which is "when He comes", WAY MORE than just "the church" will recieve glorified bodies, because there will be ALL the OT saints as well.

They do not say much about the not-part-of-the-Bride component (OT saints) of those present with Christ in the air right after the rapture - other than that they are resurrected/raptured along with 'the church'.

~

Back when my age was a one-digit number, the 'pre-trib' view acknowledged that those who "come with Christ" were the souls of past dead-in-Christ saints - to be "reunited" with their old body - as-it or then-it - was "changed" into the glorified 'spiritual' body. And, there was never a question about this.

Also, there was never a question that Matthew 24:31 was talking about the rapture.

When the 'pre-trib' view has been confronted with "unanswered" scripture verses (that could not be explained successfully to fit into the 'pre-trib' view), eventually-and-ultimately, the 'pre-trib' view "evolved" in order to "answer" those "pesky" scripture verses.

Today, it is not the same as it was back then. Some 'pre-trib' folks on CC don't seem to acknowledge that those who "come with Christ" can [even possibly] be the souls from heaven of past saints - instead insisting that they must already have their glorified 'spiritual' body.

Therefore, the 'pre-trib' view seems to be an ongoing "twist and repackage" view of eschatology.

 

[GaryA]

Allow me to say one more thing, on that point ^ (which I've stated in past threads),

--BOTH ["come" words] "erchomai" and "parousia" are used (of Him) regarding the point in time of our Rapture [IN THE AIR] AND the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth.

They aren't used exclusively for one or the other of these.

(CONTEXT determines "in what location [/circumstances]" and "who all is involved"... etc)

And CONTEXT says it is all the same 'event':

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html

 

[GaryA]

Well, think about this, Mr pernickity. In the FINAL resurrection, ALL of them are going to the GWT judgment, and THEN into the LOF. So, it's not real hard to figure out.

No, brother - sorry - you are wrong about this...

Another factoid for you: both the judgment of the saved and of the unsaved they are judged "according to their works".

How 'bout that! 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20:11-15

The saved at the Bema, when Christ returns. The unsaved at the GWT judgment. 1,000 years apart.

2 Corinthians 5:

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 20:

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Pay close attention to that last verse - it implies [directly] that there will be some who are found written in the book of life.

Also - these two passages are actually talking about the same thing - the 'BEMA' Judgment IS the Great White Throne Judgment - it is not a different Judgment - both Judgments are the same Judgment.

Why would any Christian not believe that there will be born-again people living during the 1000-reign of Christ?????

When do those people get their BEMA Judgment?

"There will only be one Judgment - and, everyone will be there!"

I believe that a lot of Christian folks assume that they are two separate Judgments - yet - I know of no scripture that actually verifies it to be true.

Please show me in scripture where it really actually indicates that they are separate Judgments - and not just assumed to be because someone thinks that they 'ought' to be...

 

[presidente]

That news is about 2000 years old bro.....
Of course pre-tribbers have the answer to this and all other post-tribber dilemmas, confusion, and anxieties.

Hmmm.

But you don't share it yourself. I wonder why that is? You seem to be the pre-trib cheerleader as opposed to someone who gives the pre-trib answers. Your faith in pre-trib seems irrational.

 

[GaryA]

Perhaps many others are in need of new glasses, and not just me. lol






( )

You mean you have not gotten your new glasses yet???



(It seems like it was quite a while back when you were talking about getting new glasses.)