Church Doctrine VS. God's Word

[Wansvic]

Works are not a ticket to heaven. We are saved and going to heaven by the Blood of Jesus the Christ .

Of course without the shed blood of Jesus salvation would not even be possible.

Was Jesus confused when He said, He who believes and is baptized shall be saved...? Mark 16:15-16

Was Peter confused when he said, Repent, and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? Acts 2:38

Was Ananias the man sent by God confused when he told Paul be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16


Acts 9:15
"But the Lord said unto him (Ananias), Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"

Acts 22:12-16
"And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, (Paul) receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

 

[ResidentAlien]

In my experience very few really understand baptism. It's either: baptism saves or it's purely symbolic. The truth is it's neither of these.

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

False doctrine

He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

@Wansvic My friend, leave Evmur be. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. There are many people like him. And God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

 

[Thewatchman]

Good Q.

I was taught that doctrine means teaching, generally. The Bible usually uses it that way.
There's true doctrine, which includes Jesus' statements as well as the categories of fundamentals that you so aptly put 1-4.
The Bible mentioned the false doctrines too and makes that distinction.

The word "dogma" might be the term you are looking for, although there are other synonyms depending on who you talk to. Dogmas are things teachings that are generally unique to specific denominations.
They can also Include traditions and practices that aren't necessarily provable by Scripture.

I agree with you about salvation not requiring water baptism. Baptism is a basic doctrine in the Bible although it is considered a sacrament required by certain denominations. Water baptism is a first step of obedience in identifying with the Lord AFTER believing on Him for salvation. It is considered a work as is most of the Christians' walk with Him, again, following salvation. It is not a requirement to gain or maintain salvation. It's what a new family member should do as well as many other things .

You have put it better that I ever have.

 

[oyster67]

The experience recorded in Acts 19:1-6 further confirms this. The group believes Paul message concerning Jesus, they get rebaptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus, and afterward Paul lays hands on them and it is then that they receive the Holy Ghost.

We are living in the Church Age now. We don't need Paul's hands anymore.

 

[oyster67]

In my experience very few really understand baptism. It's either: baptism saves or it's purely symbolic. The truth is it's neither of these.

Water Baptism in a baptismal tub is purely symbolic, and there is nothing complex or complicated about it. Nothing wrong with it either, but it is not salvational. It is an act of remembrance and testimony.

 

[Wansvic]

Many of us believe Paul means something other than water baptism when he says baptised into Jesus Christ. Have you been baptised in the Holy Spirit?

Yes. The Holy Ghost came to dwell within my body prior to my obeying the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Consider baptism in water is being buried with Jesus INTO His death. Whereas receiving the Holy Ghost is when He comes to dwell INSIDE our human body. Both are required parts of the NT spiritual rebirth. (John 3:3-5)

 

[Thewatchman]

...and all because the dumb pastor didn't know how to use a blow torch!



Agree. We get the Baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved and it's a done deal.

 

[Wansvic]

I believe in water baptism

I was not referring to that:

1. John the Baptist was not an OT prophet.
2. Paul did water baptize individuals.
3. Peter did command Cornelius and others to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Wansvic]

Water Baptism in a baptismal tub is purely symbolic, and there is nothing complex or complicated about it. Nothing wrong with it either, but it is not salvational. It is an act of remembrance and testimony.

Not according to Jesus, but I guess what He says is not the final word for some.

 

[oyster67]

Not according to Jesus, but I guess what He says is not the final word for some.

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Jesus did not die on the cross in order that He might come in and splash around in a baptismal tub with us. The power is in the Blood, not the tub. That is what the Bible teaches.

 

[Wansvic]

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Jesus did not die on the cross in order that He might come in and splash around in a baptismal tub with us. The power is in the Blood, not the tub. That is what the Bible teaches.

The scripture you reference makes my point. Those who hear Jesus' voice will believe and be baptized. (Mark 16:15-16, Heb. 5:9) And He will fill them with the Holy Ghost.

 

[oyster67]

The scripture you reference makes my point.

No Scripture references or makes your point because you have no point. No Scripture states that Water Baptism is required for Salvation. That is a foolish daydream. Salvation is not by ritual. It is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus and that alone. This is a fundamental and elementary concept. You haven't even gotten off the starting block. Open your Bible and get started today.

 

[Thewatchman]

Not according to Jesus, but I guess what He says is not the final word for some.

If I have asked this question once I bet I have asked it 100 times and no one has given me an answer back. I got saved while I was out at sea; I served in the Navy, there was not a baptismal on board the ship. There was not a swimming pool on board ship. We were not allowed to go swimming even when we were anchored which did not happen very often. The people I studied with on board the ship did not say to me lets go down to the beach and you can get baptized. The Chaplin on board the ship never told me that I needed baptized. One of the first chapters in the bible I ever studied was John 3 about being born of water and being born of the spirit. Water birth is when you come out of your mothers womb. Spiritual birth is when you get your new spirit from God. The Holy spirit.

John Chapter 3​

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God So Loved

(Genesis 22:1-10; Romans 5:6-11)

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

There is not room for the rest of this but show me in there where Jesus said “you must be baptized to be born again.

I will grant you it goes on to say that: 22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized 23And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

You can not tell me that the people John Baptized or the people Jesus's disciples baptized were saved.

It dose say14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus explained the new birth right here and never said one thing about being baptized.

John 3 :16 does not say : That God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him and is baptized shall be saved. If Jesus explained the new birth to Nicodemus and us and never said a thing about baptism can baptism really save you!

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

No Scripture references or makes your point because you have no point. No Scripture states that Water Baptism is required for Salvation. That is a foolish daydream. Salvation is not by ritual. It is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus and that alone. This is a fundamental and elementary concept. You haven't even gotten off the starting block. Open your Bible and get started today.

This people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them, saith the Lord. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Dirtman]

All I can tell ya is read every passage in scripture about baptism. And believe what is written. It's really that simple.

Imagine a Christian who disagrees with reading scripture and believing what it says.

 

[Evmur]

Why did Paul ask have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed if a person is filled with the Holy Ghost the instant they believe? His question makes the point that one does not automatically cause the other to become a reality. The experience recorded in Acts 19:1-6 further confirms this. The group believes Paul message concerning Jesus, they get rebaptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus, and afterward Paul lays hands on them and it is then that they receive the Holy Ghost.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/one-question-two-answers.207804/

it does not say they were baptised in water ... you added that.

You miss the point

They were baptised but baptism did not impart anything to them ... Paul noticed

 

[Wansvic]

No Scripture references or makes your point because you have no point. No Scripture states that Water Baptism is required for Salvation. That is a foolish daydream. Salvation is not by ritual. It is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus and that alone. This is a fundamental and elementary concept. You haven't even gotten off the starting block. Open your Bible and get started today.

You are correct salvation is by faith. Those who believe the entire gospel message trust what God says to be true and are buried into Jesus' death by baptism wherein their sins are destroyed in accordance with His death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Wansvic]

We are living in the Church Age now. We don't need Paul's hands anymore.

First you state the Holy Ghost is received when a person believes. (your post #160) Then when scripture provides correction you refuse to accept it and deflect by saying we don't need Paul's hands to receive the Holy Ghost anymore.

Again, as I shared in post 165, Why did Paul ask have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed if a person is filled with the Holy Ghost the instant they believe? His question makes the point that one does not automatically cause the other to become a reality. The experience recorded in Acts 19:1-6 further confirms this. The group believes Paul message concerning Jesus, they get rebaptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus, and afterward Paul lays hands on them and it is then that they receive the Holy Ghost.

I'm not asking you or anyone to accept an opinion. I share scripture in hopes the eyes of some will become open to the truth.

 

[Wansvic]

it does not say they were baptised in water ... you added that.

You miss the point

They were baptised but baptism did not impart anything to them ... Paul noticed

John's water baptism for remission of sin was an introduction to what would later become modified to include the name of the Lord Jesus.

When the name of the Lord Jesus is referenced in baptism it is water baptism as confirmed elsewhere in scripture. Jesus spoke of this in Luke 24:47, and Matt. 28:19-20. Peter first mentioned the need for everyone to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in Acts 2:38-39. Peter also confirmed this when he baptized Cornelius and others in Acts 10:47-48. Also, as the preceding scriptures show baptism in Jesus' name is not when a person receives the Holy Ghost. That experience takes place separate from water baptism. And, is confirmed, yet again, by the Samaritan's experience in Acts 8:12-18. They did not receive the Holy Ghost until days after being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water)

Paul's question reveals the truth. Please see: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/one-question-two-answers.207804/