Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[TheDivineWatermark]

I notice you put a lot of stock in the only one resurrection of the righteous which I dont necessarily see it so black and white for example and sorry no doubt you also have probably heard all this before so also just ignore if its a well beaten dead horse.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Why have the word order which means a series or succession of things used here if there is but one timing for the resurrection of believers?

Hi Clayman,

Right. And take notice of how the preceding verse speaks of "...SHALL [future tense] be made alive" and then the "But" of the next verse continues on with talking about those "future" references. IOW, v.23 is not backtracking to speak of Christ's Own resurrection [again], which was referenced in verse 20.

One reason we know this is because of the distinction between the Greek word "then" used in v.24 ("Then [eita]") which is a SEQUENCE word only, with no time-element attached with it (thus v.24a "Then the end" speaking of 1000-yrs later [end of MK age] is no problem at all, when viewing this LIST in this passage spanning from Christ's resurrection [v.20] forward, etc);

... but the Greek word for "then" within v.23 (our verse under discussion) is different (in some versions translated "afterward"); it's "EPeita," indicating a relatively tighter spans of time (than the SEQUENTIAL [then/'eita'] spans in v.24a which we know involves the 1000 yrs, and prior to v.23's Subject, the span between Jesus' Own resurrection and the next in this LIST, v.23 (separated by nearly 2000 yrs).

IOW, BOTH items in v.23 are "future" and occur within a tighter time-frame than the others in the LIST (based on the grammar and words used, esp. v.22b's "SHALL BE [future], 23 BUT" continuing that subject; and "EPeita" [vs. "eita"], not to mention the "ORDER / RANK" word you rightly point out).

Hope that makes sense. (Getting distracted with workload calling )

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is as silly as the posts of Absolutely.

They never do. In ALL the passages about the resurrection, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Why isn't there any verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? Because He won't be doing that.

Like I said, there are NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Either in the context of the singular resurrection or in any other context.

But, keep trying. Maybe you will finally realize that there is no glorified trip to heaven.

The singular resurrection will occur when Jesus returns to earth as King of kings at the Second Advent. All believers will be given glorified bodies and reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years over the mortal survivors of the Trib.

This means that those "who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" will NEVER see the 3rd heaven.

This is getting ridiculous bro....and remember Romans 1:18 “The wicked suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Eph 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Aaaand....here we are! We have arrived. Yep....that's us bro. Post rapture post glorification.
No doubt about it. Objectified and demonstrated most unequivocally. Purposefully with intent. To remove all doubt.

Rev 4:4
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[presidente]

Hi Clayman,

Right. And take notice of how the preceding verse speaks of "...SHALL [future tense] be made alive" and then the "But" of the next verse continues on with talking about those "future" references. IOW, v.23 is not backtracking to speak of Christ's Own resurrection [again], which was referenced in verse 20.

It is hard to follow you if you don't quote the verses.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (KJV)

The order is right there. Eita (ἔπειτα) is translated as 'afterwards' in this translation. But here is the order-- Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at His coming. Eita does not have to point back to verse 20. They that are Christ's at his coming are mentioned after eita right here in this verse.

There are two groups mentioned in this verse. These verses do not deal with the resurrection of the unjust or whatever the state is of people after the millennium, but rather they that are Christ's at His coming.

I don't see how you can get a pre-trib point out of this with 'eita. It lists two 'bands' or 'orders' here-- Christ, and they that are Christ's. This is not evidence for pre-trib's mass resurrection of the dead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
God's wrath IS in the Tribulation. It's all laid out in Revelation.

Can you prove this from the Bible?

Revelation is in the Bible. Where it is all laid out.

When do you think God's wrath will be poured out?

Are you saying the translators got it wrong? If wrath is tribulation, why do the translators translate it as 'wrath' rather than 'tribulation.'

Both words are used. No problem.

Maybe you should look up 'wrath' in the dictionary. It has to do with extreme anger, not 'tribulation', 'trials', or 'difficult times.'

Read the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls/vials. That is wrath. Without a doubt.

The book of Revelation mentions saints who overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. It does not say that they are objects of God's wrath.

So? God's wrath is on the earth.

Here we see that their are individuals who shall 'drink of the wine of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Since there is only 1 resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) and there will be believers who are still "alive and remain", obviously there will be believers IN the Tribulation.

I don't know how to get around that. What say you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is getting ridiculous bro

Yes, just as I said. Oh, I said "silly".

....and remember Romans 1:18 “The wicked suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

And how does that fit into a pre-trib rapture with trip to heaven scenario?

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I would like to point out WHEN Jesus said these words; He was still alive before the crucifixion. So v.2 was fulfilled after the crucifixion. The reason Jesus told them that was to assure them that they would be going to heaven WHEN they died.

Then, v.3 is a promise that Jesus would "come again", a clear reference to the Second Advent and "receive you unto Myself".

Then, Jesus ends the conversation with "that where I am, there ye may be also", nearly identical words found in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The bolded sentence agrees with John 14:3. What John 14:1-3 DOESN'T say is that Jesus will come for believers and take them to heaven.

Eph 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

This doesn't even address the resurrection.

Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Is this literal? Paul wrote this in the aorist tense, the tense of completed action. Were you already "raised up and are sitting together with Jesus in heavenly places"? No, of course not. Paul's message in ch 1 and 2 of Ephesians is about believers being IN UNION with Christ and sharing in what He has. Paul wrote in the aorist because Jesus IS sitting "in heavenly places" right now. And, being IN UNION with Him, we are positionally with Him. But not literally. However, all believers who die before He returns will literally be with Him.

You can't argue about the singular resurrection. The Bible NEVER speaks of multiple resurrections for believers. There is just one.

Aaaand....here we are! We have arrived. Yep....that's us bro. Post rapture post glorification.

There is no rapture. Yes, living believers will be "caught up" (1 Thess 4:17) or "gathered together" (2 Thess 2:1), but there is NO MENTION of any trip up to heaven after being caught up/gathered together.

No doubt about it. Objectified and demonstrated most unequivocally. Purposefully with intent. To remove all doubt.

You talk just like Abs did. And both of you are wrong, as just demonstrated.

Rev 4:4
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Yes, there ARE believers now in heaven. So what? It doesn't say they have resurrection bodies.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Ditto here.

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This is a promise that Jesus WILL take all saints already in heaven and bring them to earth, for their glorified bodies, and then to reign with Him in the Millennial kingdom.

See? No rapture. One resurrection, "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) and it will include ALL believers from Adam forward (those who belong to Him, also 1 Cor 15:23).

When believers receive their glorified bodies, they will "reign with Him" in the Millennial kingdom.

Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life (resurrection of belevers) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The Bible describes 2 resurrections total. One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Dan 12:2, John 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15

Feel free to look up these verses and correct any error about how many resurrections the Bible identifies.

Regarding the Second Advent, the OT prophesied 2 comings of the Messiah. Only 2, from which we call Advents.

First Advent: He came as a baby to become the Suffering Servant going to the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.
Second Advent: He comes back as King of kings, and Lord of lords, to end the Tribulation and reign for 1,000 years over the mortal unbelievers who survived the Tribulation. About half of the worlds' living population will survive.

So, every mention of "His coming" or "the coming of the Lord" in the NT is specifically referring to the prophesied Second Coming.

So 1 Thess 4 is the Second Advent. So is 2 Thess 2:1 and 1 Cor 15:23.

And there's this interesting verse on the subject:

Acts 3:21 - Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

The Greek word for "receive" means "to contain, retain". And a number of translations on biblehub.com say "He must remain in heaven until the restoration".

So the verse teaches that Jesus doesn't come back UNTIL the Tribulation is over, when He WILL restore the earth for the Millennial reign.

 

[presidente]

FreeGrace2 said:
God's wrath IS in the Tribulation. It's all laid out in Revelation.

Revelation is in the Bible. Where it is all laid out.

Where does the Bible say that tribulation is wrath.

Tribulation means tribulation. Wrath means wrath. If the saints experience tribulation, that doesn't mean they experience God's wrath.

Wouldn't you agree that 'not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ'
does NOT mean that man's wrath cannot be directed toward us. It does NOT mean that Satan's wrath cannot be directed toward us?

Wouldn't you agree that God's wrath is NOT against the saints during the tribulation?

When do you think God's wrath will be poured out?

There are bowls of wrath poured out during the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation also speaks of saints who overcome Satan. But that does not mean that God's wrath is against these saints.

Since there is only 1 resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) and there will be believers who are still "alive and remain", obviously there will be believers IN the Tribulation.

Maybe we are in agreement on that. But wrath=tribulation is poor reasoning I often see among pre-tribbers to justify pre-trib combined with taking 'not appointed unto wrath' out of context.

 

[cv5]

It is hard to follow you if you don't quote the verses.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (KJV)

The order is right there. Eita (ἔπειτα) is translated as 'afterwards' in this translation. But here is the order-- Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at His coming. Eita does not have to point back to verse 20. They that are Christ's at his coming are mentioned after eita right here in this verse.

There are two groups mentioned in this verse. These verses do not deal with the resurrection of the unjust or whatever the state is of people after the millennium, but rather they that are Christ's at His coming.

I don't see how you can get a pre-trib point out of this with 'eita. It lists two 'bands' or 'orders' here-- Christ, and they that are Christ's. This is not evidence for pre-trib's mass resurrection of the dead.

V. 21 is a general statement and v. 22 is commentary on v. 21.
Neither have any input/bearing on the topic of "sequence of succession".

 

[presidente]

V. 21 is a general statement and v. 22 is commentary on v. 21.
Neither have any input/bearing on the topic of "sequence of succession".

I don't get what you are trying to say. Also, verse 23 is the verse that is a problem for pre-trib. I'll quote 21 since you mentioned that.


21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

By 'order' I had in my mind the 'band' or 'troop' sense of the word translated 'order' from the Greek. The first 'band' or 'set' here is Christ alone. The second is they that are Christ's at His coming.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does the Bible say that tribulation is wrath.

Rev 14:9,10
And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Rev 14:19 - So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.

Rev 16:1 - Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”

You're welcome.

Tribulation means tribulation. Wrath means wrath.

There certainly is tribulation under God's wrath. Don't be so narrow.

If the saints experience tribulation, that doesn't mean they experience God's wrath.

OK. Painful death is painful death, whether God is calling someone home because it's their time, or from His painful hand of discipline, per Heb 12:11.

Wouldn't you agree that 'not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ'
does NOT mean that man's wrath cannot be directed toward us.

Nope. In fact, believers are warned about God's wrath against sin. That's why His discipline is painful. Heb 12:11

It does NOT mean that Satan's wrath cannot be directed toward us?

Of course it can. Satan hates Jews and Christians with a passion.

Wouldn't you agree that God's wrath is NOT against the saints during the tribulation?

One of the Arminians arguments for evidence of loss of salvation is "believers who take the mark of the beast", which Rev 14 says all who take the mark will end up in the LOF.

What they fail to understand is that God will use His wrath against His disobedient and/or unfaithful children to bring them home BEFORE they are able to take the mark. Just another example of God's painful discipline resulting in death.

There are bowls of wrath poured out during the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation also speaks of saints who overcome Satan. But that does not mean that God's wrath is against these saints.

Certainly not the ones who "overcome Satan". That would be the faithful and obedient believers.

Maybe we are in agreement on that. But wrath=tribulation is poor reasoning I often see among pre-tribbers to justify pre-trib combined with taking 'not appointed unto wrath' out of context.

I'm not pre-trib.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It is hard to follow you if you don't quote the verses.

You are indeed missing my point.

I'll try to do better (I was in a rush, this morning... and don't have a lot of spare time at the moment either. My apologies.)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (KJV)

Verse 22 is leading into the "FUTURE" aspects ("BUT" in v.23 is carrying forward that idea, as a "conjunction")

The order is right there. Eita (ἔπειτα) is translated as 'afterwards' in this translation.

"eita" is not in v.23.

That's the word "EPeita"...

...which I am pointing out is CONTRASTED with the word "eita" in the NEXT verse (v.24a... which is speaking sequentially of the END of the MK age 1000 years after that--after the last listed thing in v.23c)

But here is the order-- Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at His coming. Eita does not have to point back to verse 20.

I'm not saying the word "then" in verse 23 is pointing back to verse 20.

The "then" word in v.23 is NOT "eita". It is the word "EPeita" in contrast to the "eita" used in v.24a ("THEN [eita] the end..." v.24a... speaking of the end of the 1000 yrs... it is a SEQUENCE word only, with NO time-element attached with it).

They that are Christ's at his coming are mentioned after eita right here in this verse.

"eita" is not the word being used in v.23.


Rather, it's the word "EPeita"... and I'm pointing out the contrast between these two uses ("EPeita" and "eita") in this text.

There are two groups mentioned in this verse. These verses do not deal with the resurrection of the unjust or whatever the state is of people after the millennium, but rather they that are Christ's at His coming.

Again, that was not my point.

There's nothing about the end of the MK age until v.24a's "THEN [eita] the end..."

But verse 23 (the verse under discussion) doesn't use the word "eita"; rather, it uses the word "EPeita" by contrast ("epi" and "eita" combined... such as one could read it: "UPON-then"... iow, as we would put it in modern parlance, "once that happens [then the other thing can happen]," but both items in v.23 are speaking of the future "SHALL be made alive" because of v.22's wording and the conjunction which joins v.23 to the last part of v.22)

I don't see how you can get a pre-trib point out of this with 'eita.

Not with "eita" (that's the word used in the NEXT verse, v.24)

Again, "eita" is not the "then/afterward" word used in v.23, "EPeita" is... which is in contrast to the "eita [/then]" word being used in v.24a.

It lists two 'bands' or 'orders' here-- Christ, and they that are Christ's. This is not evidence for pre-trib's mass resurrection of the dead.

--"firstfruit Christ"
(no definite article 'the' used here; and recall, v.22b is saying everything in what follows is "future," NOT reaching back to v.20's PAST event; Then consider what 2Cor4:14, "...SHALL raise up us with [G4862--'UNIONed-with'] Jesus and WILL PRESENT us with you"... plus other verses like 1Cor12:12, etc)

--"they that ARE Christ's in the coming of Him" (OT saints who will be resurrected at the END of the Trib yrs, per Dan12:13, etc)

...and these two items (within v.23) occur relatively closer together because of the "EPeita" word (used in contrast to the "eita" word used in v.24a speaking of the "1000-yr-LATER" thing).












As an additional support, besides the 2Cor4:14 verse (and 1Cor12:12's "For as the body is one... many members... being many, are ONE BODY: so also IS THE CHRIST")...
consider also that some versions have 2Th2:13 saying, "hath chosen [note: a distinct word for "chosen" from the usual word used] you FIRSTFRUIT"; ...the "you" here, speaking of the Church which is His body... a proleptic "you"

 

[cv5]

It is hard to follow you if you don't quote the verses.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (KJV)

The order is right there. Eita (ἔπειτα) is translated as 'afterwards' in this translation. But here is the order-- Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at His coming. Eita does not have to point back to verse 20. They that are Christ's at his coming are mentioned after eita right here in this verse.

There are two groups mentioned in this verse. These verses do not deal with the resurrection of the unjust or whatever the state is of people after the millennium, but rather they that are Christ's at His coming.

I don't see how you can get a pre-trib point out of this with 'eita. It lists two 'bands' or 'orders' here-- Christ, and they that are Christ's. This is not evidence for pre-trib's mass resurrection of the dead.

TDW has schooled you again bro. He always has....always will.
And he is right on this issue....nobody in their right mind can deny that.

The fact is...the post-trib doctrine is that which is favored only by the willfully ignorant. Superior scholarship ALWAYS derives the pre-trib rapture from Scripture. Always. Every thread on CC new and old comes to the same conclusion.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
God's wrath IS in the Tribulation. It's all laid out in Revelation.

Revelation is in the Bible. Where it is all laid out.

When do you think God's wrath will be poured out?


Both words are used. No problem.


Read the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls/vials. That is wrath. Without a doubt.


So? God's wrath is on the earth.


Since there is only 1 resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) and there will be believers who are still "alive and remain", obviously there will be believers IN the Tribulation.

I don't know how to get around that. What say you?

Bro....the principle of removing the righteous from divine judgement is ironclad Biblical doctrine.

Yet....post-tribbers suspend ALL PRECEDENT to support their bizarre contentions. This precedent Paul AGREES with and declares over and over and over again. We receive rest, comfort consolation and are not appointed to wrath. Meaning God's peculiar, purposeful, intentional wrath of the 70th week of Daniel JUDGEMENTS.

We are gone bro. We are raptured, the Church age ends, the DOTL begins,

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bro....the principle of removing the righteous from divine judgement is ironclad Biblical doctrine.

How come your claims (opinions) are not accompanied by Scripture?

Yet....post-tribbers suspend ALL PRECEDENT to support their bizarre contentions.

I haven't given you even 1 contention. What I've given you are clear verses that refute your opinions.

There is only 1 resurrection, which occurs at the second advent and will include ALL believers. 1 Cor 15:23. Can you prove my statement doesn't reflect 1 Cor 15:23?

This precedent Paul AGREES with and declares over and over and over again. We receive rest, comfort consolation and are not appointed to wrath. Meaning God's peculiar, purposeful, intentional wrath of the 70th week of Daniel JUDGEMENTS.

This doesn't support the theory of a pre-trib rapture. btw, the "doctrine" of rapture includes that trip to heaven.

Where is the verse that acknowledges a trip to heaven in your glorified body? There aren't any.

We are gone bro. We are raptured, the Church age ends, the DOTL begins,

The DOTL begins at the Second Advent.

 

[cv5]

How come your claims (opinions) are not accompanied by Scripture?


I haven't given you even 1 contention. What I've given you are clear verses that refute your opinions.

There is only 1 resurrection, which occurs at the second advent and will include ALL believers. 1 Cor 15:23. Can you prove my statement doesn't reflect 1 Cor 15:23?


This doesn't support the theory of a pre-trib rapture. btw, the "doctrine" of rapture includes that trip to heaven.

Where is the verse that acknowledges a trip to heaven in your glorified body? There aren't any.


The DOTL begins at the Second Advent.

Says the person who cannot identify the 24 Elders, nor comprehend their own description of themselves, who they are, where they are, and in what state. I cant remember if it was you or presidente, but first you said there were no men in heaven (Rev 5)....and them hilariously declared that these men are not in their glorified state ROFL.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How come your claims (opinions) are not accompanied by Scripture?

I haven't given you even 1 contention. What I've given you are clear verses that refute your opinions.

There is only 1 resurrection, which occurs at the second advent and will include ALL believers. 1 Cor 15:23. Can you prove my statement doesn't reflect 1 Cor 15:23?

This doesn't support the theory of a pre-trib rapture. btw, the "doctrine" of rapture includes that trip to heaven.

Where is the verse that acknowledges a trip to heaven in your glorified body? There aren't any.

The DOTL begins at the Second Advent.

Says the person who cannot identify the 24 Elders

Who cares who they are? Not even scholars agree on who they may be.

nor comprehend their own description of themselves

They didn't "describe themselves" if you think they did. John was describing them and He didn't give any details. Maybe you should actually read Rev 4.

who they are, where they are, and in what state.

What do you mean "what state"? Are you silly? They aren't in the United States. They are in heaven. So I do know where they are.

I cant remember if it was you or presidente, but first you said there were no men in heaven (Rev 5)

I never said that. Of course there are men in heaven. All the saints who have died from Adam forward are right now in heaven.

....and them hilariously declared that these men are not in their glorified state ROFL.

Well, the laugh is on you. I showed you that there is just one resurrection and it doesn't occur until the Second Advent.

Do you really not comprehend 1 Cor 15:23? " But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

Can you prove that you do comprehend what this verse teaches?

If so, explain each of the color groups as to what they mean or who they are. If you can.

Red means what?

Blue words mean what?

Purple words refer to what?

Orange words refer to whom?

Frankly, I don't think you can answer any of these questions.

And slick move, ignoring my question about any verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
How come your claims (opinions) are not accompanied by Scripture?

I haven't given you even 1 contention. What I've given you are clear verses that refute your opinions.

There is only 1 resurrection, which occurs at the second advent and will include ALL believers. 1 Cor 15:23. Can you prove my statement doesn't reflect 1 Cor 15:23?

This doesn't support the theory of a pre-trib rapture. btw, the "doctrine" of rapture includes that trip to heaven.

Where is the verse that acknowledges a trip to heaven in your glorified body? There aren't any.

The DOTL begins at the Second Advent.

Who cares who they are? Not even scholars agree on who they may be.


They didn't "describe themselves" if you think they did. John was describing them and He didn't give any details. Maybe you should actually read Rev 4.


What do you mean "what state"? Are you silly? They aren't in the United States. They are in heaven. So I do know where they are.


I never said that. Of course there are men in heaven. All the saints who have died from Adam forward are right now in heaven.


Well, the laugh is on you. I showed you that there is just one resurrection and it doesn't occur until the Second Advent.

Do you really not comprehend 1 Cor 15:23? " But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

Can you prove that you do comprehend what this verse teaches?

If so, explain each of the color groups as to what they mean or who they are. If you can.

Red means what?

Blue words mean what?

Purple words refer to what?

Orange words refer to whom?

Frankly, I don't think you can answer any of these questions.

And slick move, ignoring my question about any verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Do you realize that I have never ever, not once, learned ANY Biblical truth from you? Never man. You are literally 100% wrong 100% of the time. This is an inevitable outcome of the post-trib starting point.

On the other hand I have learned an absolute TON of precious invaluable Biblical truths via TDW. I have a ton of his bookmarks saved. A ton. And zero of your posts saved. Zero.

I hope that tells you something bro.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2, presidente:

Show me "the verse" in the NT that says that this incident is specifically related to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and of the propitiation/redemption. Lets throw in Exodus 12 the passover for good measure.

Gen 22:9
And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

Gen 22:10
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

It is hard to follow you if you don't quote the verses.

Ok then:

In pre-tribulational rapture teaching, is Jesus supposed to come as a 'thief in the night' at the rapture, the second coming, or both?

No:

1Th_5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that The Day of The LORD so cometh as a thief in the night."

2Pe_3:10 "But The Day of The LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Assuming multiple returns of Christ is too big of an assumption to make without some revelation from God to back it up.

Correct; always Differentiate (Not homogenize) The Two, "Rightly
Dividing" Them, "Approved Unto God," According To God's:

"REVELATION Of The Mystery!":​

Rom 16:25 "Now to Him That Is Of Power To Stablish you
According to my [Paul's GRACE] Gospel, and the preaching
of Jesus Christ, According to The Revelation of The Mystery,
which was Kept Secret since the world began,"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

The above Revelation is Never to be Confused/homogenized with:

"Blessed be The LORD God of Israel; for He hath visited and redeemed His people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David; As He Spake by the mouth of His holy prophets, which have been since the world began:" (Luke 1:68-70)

Thus, what "has Always Been Known" can hardly be THE SAME as
"What God Has Kept Secret":

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the beginning of the world Hath Been Hid In God, Who Created all things by Jesus Christ:
+
Col_1:26 Even The Mystery Which Hath Been HID from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

 

[Clayman]

Just to establish that no one gets a glorified body BEFORE Jesus. He was the first to receive a glorified human body. So all the accounts of people being raised from the dead in both OT and the gospels didn't get a glorified body.

So 1 Cor 15:23 is perspective. Jesus first, and then, when He comes, everyone else. Seems real clear to me.


No, the 2 witnesses will experience physical death the FIRST and only time when they are killed. Their being raised to life is the same as all others who were raised to life before Jesus received His glorified body. They are still waiting for the resurrection where they will receive a glorified body.

Thanks for your responses, ill refer to this post first, I see the two witness as being in their glorified bodies just from the fact A loud voice calls them up to heaven, and people see them physically going up to heaven in a cloud just like people saw the Lord ascend into heaven, To me God will not take sinful physical bodies into heaven.

When you point out that the two witnesses only die once and their resurrection is just like the others who have been resurrected, I wonder if your thinking of that verse that says men are appointed once to die but after this the judgment, I dont see that verse as a legal rule that God has to follow, I mean I could quote a lot of verses that would contradict themselves taken in a legal context lots of atheist critics try and do this yet they are just taking verses out of context to force contradictions.

What I mean is Lazarus for example was brought back to life and lived a normal life on earth afterwards and Im pretty sure I can rightly assume he died again, yet I dont see this as a contradiction to the fact men are appointed once to die any more than a atheist would say the idea of a rapture contradicts the fact we are appointed once to die.

Any way I see a difference between those resurrected like Lazarus and the two witnesses as the two witnesses are raptured into heaven, and seems to be more like the account of the Lords resurrection and ascension

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


And I agree 1 Cor 15:23 must be perspective because all I see are different timings and an order that the first resurrection happens at different times. I see you use Rev 20:4-5 to support the timing yet seeing that you were once pretrib you already know what Im going to say It only says those who died in the tribulation period are resurrected at this time, to me this in itself supports the pretrib view.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous and even if we ignore the fact the two witnesses were part of this resurrected prior and if we ignore for a second the pretrib rapture and resurrection, We still agree Christ is not resurrected at the end of the tribulation, and He is a part of the first resurrection and was resurrected prior. So from this one little point alone I can not honestly see it as a proof text for a posttrib view.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you realize that I have never ever, not once, learned ANY Biblical truth from you?

I'm quite aware that there are non-learners out there.

Never man. You are literally 100% wrong 100% of the time.

Says the guy who CAN'T prove his opinion about a glorified trip to heaven.

This is an inevitable outcome of the post-trib starting point.

My starting point is the Bible.

1. The Bible teaches that there is 1 resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Dan 12:2
John 5:28,29
Acts 24:15
1 Cor 15:23

2. The Bible teaches that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes".
1 Cor 15:23

3. The resurrection for the unsaved will be 1,000 years after the resurrection for the saved.
Rev 20:4,5

What have you got? Nothing. Just conjecture and a whole lot of presumption.

On the other hand I have learned an absolute TON of precious invaluable Biblical truths via TDW. I have a ton of his bookmarks saved. A ton. And zero of your posts saved. Zero.

Oh spare me. Who cares what you save?

I hope that tells you something bro.

As I said, I'm well aware that there are non-learners out there.

You can't prove there are multiple resurrections of the saved.
You can't prove that Jesus takes resurrected/glorified believers to heaven after resurrection.

So basically, you can't prove any of your claims. That's all they are; claims.

Nor can you refute my use of the verses I have quoted and cited over and over.

So there's that.