Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[presidente]

No contradiction here. For the pre-tribbers that is. Nope....no problema at all.

Pray tell us: which Apostle wrote this, and what is your opinion of the identity of this group:

Rev 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 5:9
And they (men redeemed from the earth) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Is this supposed to be some evidence for the pre-trib rapture? This is one of the weaknesses of pre-trib. I think we have a poster here who actually presents this as one of the strongest pieces of evidence.

When did John experience this? Was it after the rapture of the church? No. 90 or AD (or whenever, earlier or later dates for the writing of the book) was before the rapture of the church, right? I mean 90 is less than 2022, and it hasn't happened yet now, so it must not have happened then, right?

Also, people one sees in visions may not have been experiencing the vision also. Zechariah saw a vision of an Old Testament priest named Yeshua (which I believe has some prophetic implications.) That doesn't mean that the priest Yeshua experienced the same events of the vision.

So to use this for pre-trib wouldn't you have to assume that either John time-traveled in the spirit to the gap of time between a pre-trib rapture/resurrection and the actual 'first resurrection', or that the elders spiritually time-traveled from betweena pretrib rapture/resurrection and the 'first resurrection' to John's timeline. Do you have any scripture to back this up.

How does Ephesians 2:6 weigh into your interpretation?
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

One who already believes in pre-trib might see this with the elders as some kind of supporting evidence for pre-trib. But there needs to be some justification for dividing up the parousia into multiple events in the first place. In other words, the Bible needs to actually teach pre-trib for this sort of thing to be justified.

The thing is, there are actual straightforward passages that do not require a heavy degree of allegory to interpret. Paul teaches that at the coming of the Lord, the rapture and resurrection will take place (I Thess. 1:4). Paul refers to it as the coming of the Lord and our _gathering_ unto Him. In Matthew 24, the Son of man comes in the clouds of heaven and the angels _gather_ the elect 'after the tribulation'. The rapture passage in I Thes. 4 also mentions being caught up with the resurrected dead to meet the Lord in the _clouds._

In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus returns and gives the church rest, executing judgment on them that believe not when He comes to be glorified in them that believe.

The issue is the lack of justification for interpreting passages like this through a pre-trib grid given the lack of justification for pre-trib and how it runs against the actual scenario laid out in Matthew and Paul's writings.

 

[presidente]

Precocious bro. No problema if you are right though.

Well, I'm getting rather along in years to be called precocious.

 

[cv5]

Well, I'm getting rather along in years to be called precocious.

I was describing yours truly bro lol.

 

[cv5]

Is this supposed to be some evidence for the pre-trib rapture? This is one of the weaknesses of pre-trib. I think we have a poster here who actually presents this as one of the strongest pieces of evidence.

When did John experience this? Was it after the rapture of the church? No. 90 or AD (or whenever, earlier or later dates for the writing of the book) was before the rapture of the church, right? I mean 90 is less than 2022, and it hasn't happened yet now, so it must not have happened then, right?

Also, people one sees in visions may not have been experiencing the vision also. Zechariah saw a vision of an Old Testament priest named Yeshua (which I believe has some prophetic implications.) That doesn't mean that the priest Yeshua experienced the same events of the vision.

So to use this for pre-trib wouldn't you have to assume that either John time-traveled in the spirit to the gap of time between a pre-trib rapture/resurrection and the actual 'first resurrection', or that the elders spiritually time-traveled from betweena pretrib rapture/resurrection and the 'first resurrection' to John's timeline. Do you have any scripture to back this up.

How does Ephesians 2:6 weigh into your interpretation?
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

One who already believes in pre-trib might see this with the elders as some kind of supporting evidence for pre-trib. But there needs to be some justification for dividing up the parousia into multiple events in the first place. In other words, the Bible needs to actually teach pre-trib for this sort of thing to be justified.

The thing is, there are actual straightforward passages that do not require a heavy degree of allegory to interpret. Paul teaches that at the coming of the Lord, the rapture and resurrection will take place (I Thess. 1:4). Paul refers to it as the coming of the Lord and our _gathering_ unto Him. In Matthew 24, the Son of man comes in the clouds of heaven and the angels _gather_ the elect 'after the tribulation'. The rapture passage in I Thes. 4 also mentions being caught up with the resurrected dead to meet the Lord in the _clouds._

In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus returns and gives the church rest, executing judgment on them that believe not when He comes to be glorified in them that believe.

The issue is the lack of justification for interpreting passages like this through a pre-trib grid given the lack of justification for pre-trib and how it runs against the actual scenario laid out in Matthew and Paul's writings.

Presidente....I do not need to equivocate on this eschatological matter in the least. The fact of the pre-trib rapture could not possibly be more Biblically proven, certain and assured.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If you say "pre-trib", then none of the tribulation martyrs will be in it

Correct. Tribulation Saints are not the Church bro. Pre-tribbers suffer zero coflicts, zero dilemmas and zero loose ends.

Nope. What you avoid is the fact that the Bible speaks of ONLY 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the unsaved. So where do YOU place the singular resurrection of the saved on the timeline of history?

In other words sublime eschatological perfection.

Only if you have verses that plainly say that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven. Which you don't, of course.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Presidente....I do not need to equivocate on this eschatological matter in the least. The fact of the pre-trib rapture could not possibly be more Biblically proven, certain and assured.

Actually, the opposite is true. There are NO verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

And 1 Thess 4 is THE primo passage for the "pre-tribbers", yet no mention at all of Jesus taking anyone to heaven after the resurrection and twinkline of the eye changing of living believers.

And pre-tribbers can't refute the fact that Scripture says multiple times there will be only 1 resurrection of the saved and one for the unsaved.

So they make up the "3 part harvest" to explain away themselves. Yet, Scripture will have no part of that fantasy.

You can't get around 1 Cor 15:23, so you have to make up stuff.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's speculative dogmatism at best. The Emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

So the "pre-tribbers" are all nudists??

 

[GaryA]

Sorry about that bro. When you get a chance let us know how you think Dan 9 and 12 relate to the SC.

Just two 'reminder' posts from the past:

https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4479869
https://christianchat.com/threads/why-daniels-70th-week-must-be-in-the-future.200137/post-4608506

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Correct. Tribulation Saints are not the Church bro. Pre-tribbers suffer zero coflicts, zero dilemmas and zero loose ends. In other words sublime eschatological perfection.

Obeying 2 Timothy 2:15...

Dividing Paul's references to the coming of the Lord (he doesn't say one of multiple comings of the Lord)...I don't want to go down rabbit trails.

there needs to be some justification for dividing up the parousia into multiple events in the first place.

Very simply, it looks like this:

God's Context of "prophecy and the law" = 2nd Coming TO the earth

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Other Context Of "Grace And The Mystery" Departure TO Heaven

Did I mention Very simple?:

All Scriptural Confirmation for your needed "justification!":

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑
Grace, Peace, And JOY(In Blessed HOPE!)...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Very simply, it looks like this:

God's Context of "prophecy and the law" = 2nd Coming TO the earth

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Other Context Of "Grace And The Mystery" Departure TO Heaven

Where is this found in the Bible?

Did I mention Very simple?:

What is very simple is the number of resurrections. 1 each for the saved and unsaved.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Red words reference the resurrection of the saved.
Blue words reference the resurrection of the unsaved.

Regarding the singular resurrection of the saved, Paul wrote:

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

There is no debate. "when he comes" is a direct reference to the Second Advent. "those who belong to him" refers to ALL believers from Adam forward.

All Scriptural Confirmation for your needed "justification!":

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑
Grace, Peace, And JOY(In Blessed HOPE!)...

Nope. None of the verses in these links even talks about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

You have no evidence from Scripture for a pre-trib resurrection with trip to heaven.

 

[Clayman]

At the Lord's coming, the dead in Christ rise first and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, according to I Thessalonians 4.

Christ comes executing vengence on them that believe that.

Sorry I dont understand, those that believe what?

The Bible says that God will render to every man according to His deeds. The man of sin is destroyed with the brightness of His coming. God judges the others as He wishes.

Does He not tell us how He will judge them? For instance the unbelievers at His coming.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Romans 11 tells us that Israel, in part, is blinded, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. At some point Israel will believe in Christ. 'They shall look on him whom they pierced' either was fulfilled at the cross, or the piercing took place so that it could be more completely fulfilled at a later date. Revelation says all the tribes of the earth shall mourn. ('Earth' and 'land' translate the same word.) I wonder if they come to faith, or the remainder come to faith, after Christ has already arrived.

Thats pretty much how I am seeing post trib, You seem to believe all the believers have been raptured to heaven, as the Lords returning to earth, So you only have mortal unbelievers on earth, Yet the bible tells us there are mortal believers that go into the kingdom, I guess you have to say, after the Lord returns then people go oh He is real I better believe in Him?

Whereas I see the blindness removed when the rapture takes place before the wrath of God comes, then we have the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem and the 144,000 witnesses and a revival of Israels faith.

When you said in another post

The word translated 'coming' is parousia. Back when this was written, when an important official came into the city, the people of the city might come out to meet him and escort him into the city. Think of something like the triumphal entry. I believe Christ is returning to the earth.... with His saints which will be newly transformed or resurrected.

When I think of the triumphal entry I think Of those laying Psalm leaves on the ground and a Cheering of the crowds, when I think of the Post trib entry, its like a return to an empty city for all the followers of Christ are in the parade. Like when a team wins the Superbowl theres no cheering crowd for all the supporters all left the city to march in with the team.

From my view Jesus returns and saves the remnant of the Jews by destroying those come up against them as theyve already looked to God for rescue(the one whom they pieced), He doesnt rescue them by physically removing them but with fire and judgment.

 

[Clayman]

If I may.... I would suggest to read the entire chapter of Zechariah 14
but to zoom in specifically on mortal survivors, this section:

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King,
the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts
on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

Its not the fact there are survivors, its the fact there are no believing survivors from post tribs view, as opposed to believing survivors from a pre trib view, I guess you can say the unbelieving mortal survivors become believers in the 1000 kingdom? Im having trouble seeing how that can be logical is all...

Nice verses I also just read Zech 13, and it also lines up with how I see things, God brings the nations up against Israel to bring forth a believing remnant, through the trials of the tribulation and persecution, they will cry out to the Lord they will look to him who they pierced and He will come to answer their cry (funny how things keep repeating)

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

 

[cv5]

At the Lord's coming (FOR HIS CHURCH), the dead in Christ rise first and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, according to I Thessalonians 4.

Rightly dividing the truth is as much an art as science bro.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lucy-Pevensie said:
If I may.... I would suggest to read the entire chapter of Zechariah 14
but to zoom in specifically on mortal survivors, this section:

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King,
the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.
18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts
on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

Its not the fact there are survivors, its the fact there are no believing survivors from post tribs view, as opposed to believing survivors from a pre trib view, I guess you can say the unbelieving mortal survivors become believers in the 1000 kingdom? Im having trouble seeing how that can be logical is all...

The logic is clear. There will be one resurrection of the saved; and that will be "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23 and ALL believers will receive glorified bodies. And this will be at the Second Advent, when Jesus returns to reign for 1,000 years. So the only survivors of the Tribulation will be unbelievers. They will be the mortals who re-populate the earth during the Millennial kingdom.

This also explains the world wide rebellion against the King at the end of the Tribulation:

Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So, all surviving unbelievers will be killed, prior to the GWT judgment, which follows v.10. So the resurrection of unbelievers will occur before the GWT judgment and their revived mortal bodies will DIE again when cast into the LOF.

That is why the LOF is also called the Second Death.

 

[presidente]

Presidente....I do not need to equivocate on this eschatological matter in the least. The fact of the pre-trib rapture could not possibly be more Biblically proven, certain and assured.

That is a really sad commentary on pre-trib if it cannot be more Biblically proven, certain, and assured than it is in this thread.

And saying it is all proven and fits together doesn't make it so, or do away with all the scriptures against pre-trib that we've been citing. Assuming the references to Jesus' coming is multiple events is clearly problematic when the scriptures do not teach it as such.

 

[cv5]

That is a really sad commentary on pre-trib if it cannot be more Biblically proven, certain, and assured than it is in this thread.

And saying it is all proven and fits together doesn't make it so, or do away with all the scriptures against pre-trib that we've been citing. Assuming the references to Jesus' coming is multiple events is clearly problematic when the scriptures do not teach it as such.

Pre-tribbers are batting 1000 bro. They always do. Why pray tell? Only because they know exactly what they are talking about and are 100% right 100% of the time.

 

[presidente]

Sorry I dont understand, those that believe what?

Sorry, typo. Them that believe not.

Does He not tell us how He will judge them? For instance the unbelievers at His coming.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The Bible also speaks of survivors. And it says that every knee shall bow-- on the earth and under the earth included. There are Jews who look on Him Whom they have pierced. It is up to the Lord to show mercy on those who repent at His second coming, if there are any, after the saints are resurrected. There may also be babies alive at that time.

Some passages deal in broad strokes and some give more refined detail. Pre-trib doesn't have everyone being wiped out, either, of course. It's the same issue for pre-trib with this passage. But pre-trib has a problem because this has Jesus coming back executing vengence on them that believe not when he comes to be glorified in the saints. Pre-trib has two arrivals of Christ.

Thats pretty much how I am seeing post trib, You seem to believe all the believers have been raptured to heaven, as the Lords returning to earth,

Where do you get that? I don't know if other post-tribbers will be raptured to heaven. I believe we go up to meet the Lord and return with Him.

So you only have mortal unbelievers on earth, Yet the bible tells us there are mortal believers that go into the kingdom, I guess you have to say, after the Lord returns then people go oh He is real I better believe in Him?

I don't know what 'exceptions' will be made to this, but any post-trib problems with this problem are pre-trib problems, too. Except pre-tribbers have to struggle to make this one return of Christ into two or make it last 7 years or whatever.

Whereas I see the blindness removed when the rapture takes place before the wrath of God comes, then we have the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem and the 144,000 witnesses and a revival of Israels faith.

I don't see where it states when the blindness is removed, so I can't say. I also don't see where it says the 144,000 are evangelists for the faith or anything specific along those lines like some pre-tribbers insist.

 

[presidente]

Pre-tribbers are batting 1000 bro. They always do. Why pray tell? Only because they know exactly what they are talking about and are 100% right 100% of the time.

It's a lot of easier for you to say that than it is for you to present some solid evidence for pre-trib.... as opposed to wildly allegorical interpretations.... or just hint at them.

 

[presidente]

Rightly dividing the truth is as much an art as science bro.

Jesus comes and gives the church rest in II Thessalonians 1, the same coming where He executes vengence on them that believe not. pre-trib separates it into two events.

 

[presidente]

Obeying 2 Timothy 2:15...


Very simply, it looks like this:

God's Context of "prophecy and the law" = 2nd Coming TO the earth

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Other Context Of "Grace And The Mystery" Departure TO Heaven

Did I mention Very simple?:

All Scriptural Confirmation for your needed "justification!":

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑
Grace, Peace, And JOY(In Blessed HOPE!)...

How do you think any of the verses you listed support your claim. You assume there are two comings of the Lord, when the scripture only speak of one more, then you put verses into the two invented 'buckets.' That's not evidence of the Bible teaching anything. It's evidence of how you try to fit scripture into an ASSUMED pre-trib theory.

The angels also come with Christ when He returns to give His church rest in II Thessalonians 1, and also to execute vengence on them that believe not... which He does when he comes to be glorified in the saints. How is that multiple comings? how do you fit that chapter with pre-trib.

It makes more sense to put all these events into one bucket since the Bible only tells us about one return of Christ. Assuming multiple returns of Christ is too big of an assumption to make without some revelation from God to back it up.