Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[cv5]

If only - you actually paid attention to the verses you post - before using them in an attempt to prop up your POV...

Focus on the phrase 'neither under the earth' for a while - and then think about what you are trying to say in the above quoted post.

Since you are a hard-boiled full preterist, pray tell me:
Does Dan 9 have any relation to Dan 12? And do both have anything to do with the Second Coming?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Thanks, so if all believers are raptured the mortal survivors are all non Believers?

If I may.... I would suggest to read the entire chapter of Zechariah 14
but to zoom in specifically on mortal survivors, this section:

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King,
the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts
on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

 

[presidente]

Patterns, structure, types, idioms bro. They are an integral part of the warp and woof of Scripture. Without them you have scribblings on parchment.

What do you think of the 7 feasts of Moses? Merely harvest festivals?

Riddle me this: is the cleansing ritual of a leper nothing but a bizarre aggregate of nonsensical doings....or much MUCH more?

Lev 14:14
And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
Lev 14:17
And of the rest of the oil that is in his hand shall the priest put upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the blood of the trespass offering:

Have you ever seen that movie, "A Beautiful Mind" where the economist who later won a Nobel Prize starts seeing patterns in magazines, codes about code world conspiracy theories, etc?

Your attitude here seems to be that of someone who thinks he has superior knowledge. One of the problems with allegorical interpretation is that a lot of times, in order to rationally accept that it is true, you pretty much have to believe the interpreter is inspired in the interpretation. If it has a 'Thus saith the Lord' attached to it, we can judge it as a prophecy.

You come off as if you think you are the man with the superior knowledge who understands the types and shadows. From my perspective, it is much more likely you hold to an unbiblical doctrine, and using human reasoning to fit things into your system. You are asking me to guess where you imagination goes when you read certain passages, treating me and other posters as if we were your students. It comes off as condescending and a bit obnoxious sometimes. If you are right about some of your allegorical interpretations, asking us to guess what is in your mind isn't helpful. Just state what you think you see in the passage.

I think I can rightly infer from your posts that you don't see the pre-tribulational rapture as something the apostles actually directly taught, but that it rests on allegory, interpretations of parables, and interpretations of how Biblical feasts fit together. The problem I see is when the allegorical passages contradict the direct teachings of Paul in scripture.

Another issue is the pride issue. You seem to think of yourself as being in a superior position. Another poster urged you to repent of your pride to see the truth about your position.

You should consider that. But if for nothing else, for the sake of communication, this doesn't work. Asking people who think your position is in error how you read these various scriptures through a pre-trib rubrice to guess come up with your pre-trib interpretation of them isn't aneffective communication technique. It's annoying, and no, it doesn't leave us, or at least not me, with the impression of your superiority. You can't read my mind either. That doesn't make me superior to you.

 

[cv5]

Have you ever seen that movie, "A Beautiful Mind" where the economist who later won a Nobel Prize starts seeing patterns in magazines, codes about code world conspiracy theories, etc?

Was that rant and rambling a form of running interference to avoid a confrontation?

Still waiting for your astute opinion on my questions (which you went to extraordinary lengths to avoid answering):

"What do you think of the 7 feasts of Moses? Merely harvest festivals?

Riddle me this: is the cleansing ritual of a leper nothing but a bizarre aggregate of nonsensical doings....or much MUCH more?

Lev 14:14
And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
Lev 14:17
And of the rest of the oil that is in his hand shall the priest put upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the blood of the trespass offering:"

 

[cv5]

I think I can rightly infer from your posts that you don't see the pre-tribulational rapture as something the apostles actually directly taught, but that it rests on allegory, interpretations of parables, and interpretations of how Biblical feasts fit together. The problem I see is when the allegorical passages contradict the direct teachings of Paul in scripture.

No contradiction here. For the pre-tribbers that is. Nope....no problema at all.

Pray tell us: which Apostle wrote this, and what is your opinion of the identity of this group:

Rev 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 5:9
And they (men redeemed from the earth) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[cv5]

"codes about code world conspiracy theories, etc"
You come off as if you think you are the man with the superior knowledge who understands the types and shadows. From my perspective, it is much more likely you hold to an unbiblical doctrine, and using human reasoning to fit things into your system.

Presidente: does the fact that Jesus is so proclaimed as "our passover" and the "Lamb of God" have anything to do with Exodus 12 and Leviticus 23? And does the fact that Jesus was resurrected on the 17th of Nisan hold any relevance compared to the 7 feasts of Moses and at the same time the Church? Does the Feast of Weeks have anything to do with Acts 2?

This is getting embarrassing bro. And not for me......

1Co 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Exo 12:27
That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

Lev 23:10
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

Lev 23:11
And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Act 2:1
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

 

[cv5]

You come off as if you think you are the man with the superior knowledge who understands the types and shadows.

Psa 103:7
He made known his ways unto Moses, (but merely and tragically limited to???) his acts unto the children of Israel.

Wow....now that is an interesting verse is it not?

 

[cv5]

Presidente....here you go bro. Hope that helps quash your "(Biblical) conspiracy theories/types and shadows " conspiracy theory.

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[Runningman]

Patterns, structure, types, idioms bro. They are an integral part of the warp and woof of Scripture. Without them you have scribblings on parchment.

That’s called the secret knowledge fallacy. People, pre-tribbers often, appeal to this because the Bible doesn’t really help them on this point. If it did we would all pack our bags and go home.

Claims of extra-biblical revelation, such as a revelation from God, are used even though anyone can’t fact check it.

I was in a rapture thread awhile back and one of them did it there, too. YouTube is flooded with people who claim to have dreams about the pre-trib rapture, citing it as proof, but notice they can’t quote a single verse.

The problem is there isn’t a way for anyone else to verify this secret knowledge. It’s often used as bait to lure others into their exclusive club in hopes of gaining this secret knowledge because people are naturally curious. As one who has studied the workings of cults, secret knowledge is one of their lures to recruit others.

I’ve noticed you often point to TheDivineWatermark as an authority on the pre-trib rapture; apparently only he truly can rightly interpret the patterns, structures, idioms, etc. but it’s the sole basis of Gnosticism.

Meanwhile, post-tribbers just point to the simple words of Jesus and the apostles in the Bible that anyone can fact check.

 

[cv5]

That’s called the secret knowledge fallacy.

Its the worst kept secret in all of human history bro......

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[cv5]

The point I'm making is that just because you have received the Lord Jesus does not mean you are fully ripened and ready for harvest at the same time as every other believer. We have multiple harvests, we have first fruits, general harvest and gleanings. It will be the same with the believers.

Cannot be so bro. The thief on the cross was as "green" as they come.

Salvation is not a process.....it is an event. A new creation....

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

 

[ZNP]

Its the worst kept secret in all of human history bro......

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So Paul is saying that Passover was a shadow of Jesus crucifixion, and First Fruits was a shadow of those people who came out of the grave at Jesus Resurrection, and Unleavened bread was a shadow of Jesus being in the grave, and Shavuot was a shadow of Jesus ascension, and the feast of new wine was a shadow of Pentecost in Acts. So then what are Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles a shadow of?

 

[ZNP]

Cannot be so bro. The thief on the cross was as "green" as they come.

Salvation is not a process.....it is an event. A new creation....

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

the thief on the cross was not raptured

 

[ZNP]

Cannot be so bro. The thief on the cross was as "green" as they come.

Salvation is not a process.....it is an event. A new creation....

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

If salvation is not a process then what is Paul talking about when he says we are transformed from glory to glory?

2Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Isn't growth a process?

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

[cv5]

If salvation is not a process then what is Paul talking about when he says we are transformed from glory to glory?

How many "glory's" do we need before "we achieve" a comfortable state of assured salvation bro?

 

[cv5]

the thief on the cross was not raptured

My comment was a criticism of your "doctrine of ripening before salvation" bro.
Nothing to do with being raptured.

 

[cv5]

So Paul is saying that Passover was a shadow of Jesus crucifixion, and First Fruits was a shadow of those people who came out of the grave at Jesus Resurrection, and Unleavened bread was a shadow of Jesus being in the grave, and Shavuot was a shadow of Jesus ascension, and the feast of new wine was a shadow of Pentecost in Acts. So then what are Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles a shadow of?

You had better direct your questioning to Runningman or Presidente. They are the ones who have no clue.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

If salvation is not a process then what is Paul talking about when he says we are transformed from glory to glory?

2Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Precious friend:

Depends which Deliverance one is referring to; past, present, or future:

"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not
trust in ourselves, but in God Which raiseth the dead: Who delivered
us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in Whom we trust that He
will yet deliver us;" (2 Corinthians 1:9-10)

Isn't growth a process?

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Yes, "growing In Grace" is the present tense "deliverance from the power of sin,"
by "faith which worketh by love"...

More is here:

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

 

[cv5]

That’s called the secret knowledge fallacy. People, pre-tribbers often, appeal to this because the Bible doesn’t really help them on this point. If it did we would all pack our bags and go home.

Claims of extra-biblical revelation, such as a revelation from God, are used even though anyone can’t fact check it.

I was in a rapture thread awhile back and one of them did it there, too. YouTube is flooded with people who claim to have dreams about the pre-trib rapture, citing it as proof, but notice they can’t quote a single verse.

The problem is there isn’t a way for anyone else to verify this secret knowledge. It’s often used as bait to lure others into their exclusive club in hopes of gaining this secret knowledge because people are naturally curious. As one who has studied the workings of cults, secret knowledge is one of their lures to recruit others.

I’ve noticed you often point to TheDivineWatermark as an authority on the pre-trib rapture; apparently only he truly can rightly interpret the patterns, structures, idioms, etc. but it’s the sole basis of Gnosticism.

Meanwhile, post-tribbers just point to the simple words of Jesus and the apostles in the Bible that anyone can fact check.

Thanks Runningman. And I agree with what you (and Presidente) are trying to communicate, that being:

Valid post-tribber biblical arguments are running dry, and we are at that stage of ad hominem attacks and denials which is the bunker to which post-tribbers inevitably retreat when debating with pre-tribbers.

But the fact remains....not ONE post-tribber can (or has) answered the straightforward question of who these 24 Elders actually are. Despite the fact that Scripture delineates, describes and identifies them in abundantly lush and descriptive language all of which is beyond all refutation.

So....post-trib ladies and gentlemen, I beg and implore you once again to please answer:
1) who are these 24 Elders?
2) does their appearance in Rev 4 & 5 precede chronologically the opening of the seals so described in Rev 6?

Any takers? Lucy? Presidente? Runningman? GaryA?

Rev 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 4:4
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats (Strong's G2362: throne): and upon the seats (Strong's G2362: throne) I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

That’s called the secret knowledge fallacy. People, pre-tribbers often, appeal to this because the Bible doesn’t really help them on this point

Actually, Precious friend, one does not have to "appeal to anything," Excepting
of course, God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided = His Approval:
our "Blessed HOPE!":

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...