Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[cv5]

either you graduate on time or you are destroyed with the wicked.

Good point.....

 

[Clayman]

I Thessalonians teaches that the dead in Christ shall rise first, and they that are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The same epistle teaches that the Lord will come with His saints. The word translated 'coming' is parousia. Back when this was written, when an important official came into the city, the people of the city might come out to meet him and escort him into the city. Think of something like the triumphal entry. I believe Christ is returning to the earth.... with His saints which will be newly transformed or resurrected.



My understanding is that there will be mortal survivors.

Thanks, so if all believers are raptured the mortal survivors are all non Believers?

 

[ZNP]

Thanks, so if all believers are raptured the mortal survivors are all non Believers?

They are the sheep, they treated others in a kind and generous way. They can live for up to 1,000 years.

The kingdom they inherit was from the foundation of the world. The kingdom the believers inherit is from before the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Clayman]

They are the sheep, they treated others in a kind and generous way. They can live for up to 1,000 years.

The kingdom they inherit was from the foundation of the world. The kingdom the believers inherit is from before the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Interesting verses thanks, so I'm trying to understand it from post trib and this is what im seeing, one does not believe in Christ therefore misses the rapture as He comes, yet according to matt 25 if they have done good works they are actually also sheep and by their good works not only enter into the 1000yrs but are proven righteous and inherit eternal life?

 

[presidente]

Wow what a simple doctrine, no gray area. Almost makes me wonder about the five foolish virgins who didn't have oil in their lamps or about the servant who buried the talent in the backyard. Were they "destroyed at the brightness of His coming".

Can you show me some scripture that says that those who bury talent or foolish virgins are the same as the man of sin in I Thessalonians 2?

In America we have those who graduate with honors, we also have those who have to go to summer school and still others who have to get their GED, but apparently your vision of God is not nearly so merciful, either you graduate on time or you are destroyed with the wicked.

I cannot read your mind. I do not know what point you are trying to make in relation to what I posted or when you posted before.

 

[ZNP]

Interesting verses thanks, so I'm trying to understand it from post trib and this is what im seeing, one does not believe in Christ therefore misses the rapture as He comes, yet according to matt 25 if they have done good works they are actually also sheep and by their good works not only enter into the 1000yrs but are proven righteous and inherit eternal life?

these are not believers. They are the nations. They don't have faith in Christ, they did not receive the redemptive work of the Lord, they don't even know the Lord.

 

[ZNP]

Can you show me some scripture that says that those who bury talent or foolish virgins are the same as the man of sin in I Thessalonians 2?





I cannot read your mind. I do not know what point you are trying to make in relation to what I posted or when you posted before.

The point I'm making is that just because you have received the Lord Jesus does not mean you are fully ripened and ready for harvest at the same time as every other believer. We have multiple harvests, we have first fruits, general harvest and gleanings. It will be the same with the believers.

 

[ZNP]

Can you show me some scripture that says that those who bury talent or foolish virgins are the same as the man of sin in I Thessalonians 2?

Of course they aren't. That is the point. There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to eternal judgement.

 

[Clayman]

these are not believers. They are the nations. They don't have faith in Christ, they did not receive the redemptive work of the Lord, they don't even know the Lord.

Yes I understood, and the verses you gave me from Matt 25 that say the nations are gathered, those who did good to God's people are seen as sheep and enter the 1000yr kingdom are also seen as righteous and have eternal life?

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I actually see these people as believers but I'm pre trib so I have a totally different view to you here, I'm trying to understand how post trib see things, My understanding is that they see only unbelievers on earth at the Lords coming which you are confirming

 

[Jackson123]

Interesting verses thanks, so I'm trying to understand it from post trib and this is what im seeing, one does not believe in Christ therefore misses the rapture as He comes, yet according to matt 25 if they have done good works they are actually also sheep and by their good works not only enter into the 1000yrs but are proven righteous and inherit eternal life?

The sheep is not only christian during tribulation
all real Christian in all time abide in Jesus and will bear the fruit of loving work, because the fruit of the Holy Spirit is loving work.
charity or love in action

 

[Clayman]

The sheep is not only christian during tribulation
all real Christian in all time abide in Jesus and will bear the fruit of loving work, because the fruit of the Holy Spirit is loving work.
charity or love in action

simply as James says they will show their faith by their works

 

[presidente]

I actually see these people as believers but I'm pre trib so I have a totally different view to you here, I'm trying to understand how post trib see things, My understanding is that they see only unbelievers on earth at the Lords coming which you are confirming

At the Lord's coming, the dead in Christ rise first and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, according to I Thessalonians 4.

Christ comes executing vengence on them that believe that. The Bible says that God will render to every man according to His deeds. The man of sin is destroyed with the brightness of His coming. God judges the others as He wishes.

Romans 11 tells us that Israel, in part, is blinded, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. At some point Israel will believe in Christ. 'They shall look on him whom they pierced' either was fulfilled at the cross, or the piercing took place so that it could be more completely fulfilled at a later date. Revelation says all the tribes of the earth shall mourn. ('Earth' and 'land' translate the same word.) I wonder if they come to faith, or the remainder come to faith, after Christ has already arrived.

 

[presidente]

The point I'm making is that just because you have received the Lord Jesus does not mean you are fully ripened and ready for harvest at the same time as every other believer. We have multiple harvests, we have first fruits, general harvest and gleanings. It will be the same with the believers.

The tares are harvested. That doesn't mean they are raptured up into the air.

 

[presidente]

Men in heaven? Really?
Wow...looks like the rapture has happen waaaay back in Rev 4-5 before any tribulation seals haven been opened.

Rev 5:2
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Rev 5:3
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:4
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

You should look up a Greek interlinear before posting this sort of thing.

Οὐδεὶς (oudeis) is the word. It has nothing to do with the species of the 'no one' who could open the book. It's not 'anthropos' or 'aner' in that verse.

 

[presidente]

Presidente.....I'm really afraid that you don't get it buddy. And you don't want to know either.

Not cool bro. No bueno.

If these are your arguments for pre-trib, why be a pre-tribber? You haven't shown where the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture. Instead, you have a 'Mosaic' of a lot of little supposed clues here and there. I read posts from a full-preterist who did the same thing, though probably tighter sounding that this loose method you are using. It's very doable to take an eschatological system that the Bible doesn't teach and figure out a way to argue verses fit into it.

Matthew 24
Notice the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the tribulation
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Why would He say this to His disciples?

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Why would disciples of Jesus have to be ready if they were going to be raptured first?

Again, please just settle this matter. Can you show me in scripture where it says that the coming of the Lord occurs before the coming of the Lord, that Jesus comes back twice? Can you show me the scripture that lays out a sequence of events and shows the rapture seven years before the second coming?

 

[ZNP]

The tares are harvested. That doesn't mean they are raptured up into the air.

No, the tares are gathered into bundles to be burned, but are not burned yet. That happens later.

The wheat is gathered to the barn. God the Father is the husbandman, it is His barn that we are gathered to.

 

[Jackson123]

simply as James says they will show their faith by their works

Yep and apply for christian all time, not only for Christian on great tribulation
christian mean have Christ in the heart than bear the fruit of love
helping the needy is a manifestation of agape love

 

[GaryA]

Men in heaven? Really?
Wow...looks like the rapture has happen waaaay back in Rev 4-5 before any tribulation seals haven been opened.

Rev 5:2
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Rev 5:3
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:4
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

If only - you actually paid attention to the verses you post - before using them in an attempt to prop up your POV...

Focus on the phrase 'neither under the earth' for a while - and then think about what you are trying to say in the above quoted post.

 

[cv5]

If these are your arguments for pre-trib, why be a pre-tribber?

Patterns, structure, types, idioms bro. They are an integral part of the warp and woof of Scripture. Without them you have scribblings on parchment.

What do you think of the 7 feasts of Moses? Merely harvest festivals?

Riddle me this: is the cleansing ritual of a leper nothing but a bizarre aggregate of nonsensical doings....or much MUCH more?

Lev 14:14
And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
Lev 14:17
And of the rest of the oil that is in his hand shall the priest put upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the blood of the trespass offering:

 

[cv5]

If only - you actually paid attention to the verses you post - before using them in an attempt to prop up your POV...

Focus on the phrase 'neither under the earth' for a while - and then think about what you are trying to say in the above quoted post.

Whoops.....all you had to do was scroll down one more verse. Here are your men bro....and more than just one.

Rev 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 5:9
And they (men redeemed from the earth) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


There are your men buddy. And yes, 24 out of 25 manuscripts make it clear that this is the raptured Church NOW IN HEAVEN.
BEFORE the seals are ever opened in Chapter 6.....