Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[Mem]

My understanding is that the rapture prior to the tribulation is similar to winning an award at the Olympics. It is likened to that kind of judgement. Now although this may only represent a very small percent of world's population and a minority of those who call themselves Christians, it will impact everyone.

1. Imagine you are a pastor of a church and you are left behind. It will bring into question everything you have done and taught.

2. Imagine you are a lukewarm Christian, in the same way it will be catastrophic. You believe in the Lord and you now know the tribulation has started and the only way out for you is to be martyred.

3. Now even if it is only 6% of the US population, these 6% pay their taxes and are honest, law abiding citizens. Only 50% of Americans are taxpayers, so this could work out to over 8% of taxpayers. That will be a major hit to Federal and state tax revenue.

4. Not only so but all businesses will lose 6% of their customers. That could be a huge hit.

5. Not only so, imagine what this will do to consumer confidence? All of a sudden instead of 6% of Americans talking about the tribulation and the rapture it will be 60%.

6. But it is worse than that because Jesus said it would be like the days of Lot. As he left the city of Sodom and Gomorrah fire fell on that city. A strong case can be made for the US being Sodom and Gomorrah, so if in one hour the US economy collapses imagine how that will impact the rest of the world.

7. But it is worse than that, I have heard based on Ken Peters dream, that all the babies under 2 will also be taken.

8. And then of course you will see 6% of employees disappear. Every business will be impacted.

But there is a whole different way to look at this and that is the pagan celebration of a guy in a red suit sneaking into houses in the middle of the night and exchanging their eternal salvation for some piece of plastic junk from the Mall.

You're suggesting the rapture will be like Christmas morning? except that the real "Santa" will be taking all the good stuff out of the world? I think that understanding is upside down. Considering its comparison is to that of the days of Noah and the days of Lot, that which is taken are all those complacent toward that day as if it were only a fanciful legend. The disciples asked, "where?" and Jesus answered, essentially, "on the spot where they fall. there the eagles (i.e. scavengers, as in vultures) will gather (to scavenge their dead carcasses). So that morning will not so much be anything like Christmas as those blessed of the Lord will escape with their lives, and remain, that is be left. So, even if that's only 6%, the economy will be just fine, considering these will all have a good root in the Lord, who teaches us to give thanks for everything, even if it's just seven loaves of bread that He blesses to feed five thousand.

 

[presidente]

Not so....

Mat 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Who and what exactly is happening here is perfectly clear to the pre-tribbers. Perfectly clear.

Do you think the tares get raptured first? how do you make a pre-trib verse out of this?

I know pre-tribbers can be very creative. I am curious to know.

 

[presidente]

@cv5 @TheDivineWatermark and other pre-tribbers.

Paul writes about the coming of the Lord as if it is one event. He doesn't mention multiple second comings of Christ. We are looking forward to the coming of the Lord.

My question is this-- do you have some scripture that let's us in on the pre-trib theory that there are two returns of Christ? (I mean besides John being told 'Come up hither' which is a heavily allegorical, not literal, interpretation.) Is there some scripture that supports the idea?

If not, why would pre-trib be a viable contender as an eschatological position for you? How can you justify holding to it and trying to make various scriptures fit with it without some Biblical evidence that the return of Christ is multiple events?

 

[cv5]

Do you think the tares get raptured first? how do you make a pre-trib verse out of this?

I know pre-tribbers can be very creative. I am curious to know.

You missed it buddy....there is no pre-trib or any other rapture in the tribulation or SC.
OK bro....hope this helps. Even though I have my doubts about your uptake capacity.

Mat 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that (the informed and faithful) Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39
And (THEY) knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[presidente]

You missed it buddy....there is no pre-trib rapture in the tribulation or SC.
OK bro....hope this helps. Even though I have my doubts about your uptake capacity.

Mat 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that (the informed and faithful) Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39
And (THEY) knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The part about how this ties in to your version of pre-trib would be helpful.

My 'uptake capacity' isn't perfect when it comes to guessing what is in someone else's mind.

 

[cv5]

@cv5 @TheDivineWatermark and other pre-tribbers.

Paul writes about the coming of the Lord as if it is one event. He doesn't mention multiple second comings of Christ.

Neither does Jesus in John 14-17. You know....John, the gospel written to the Church?
In John, Jesus only propounds upon one gathering:
....the pre-trib rapture.

No mention (OR WARNING) of a terrifying tribulation, no SC for Israel.

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[cv5]

The part about how this ties in to your version of pre-trib would be helpful

You missed it again.....it doesn't tie into the pre-trib rapture. It cannot. Because the rapture has already happened 7 years prior.

 

[Mem]

Strong's Greek 863. denotes being "left" in a favorable sense.

 

[Mem]

the tares are taken, bundled up for the furnace, and then the wheat is gathered into the barn... this suggests the resurrection, of those that are alive and remain (putting on imperishable), occurs after the tares (perishable) are felled. This makes sense considering the promise that, "you will trample upon the ashes of the wicked"

 

[cv5]

The part about how this ties in to your version of pre-trib would be helpful.

My 'uptake capacity' isn't perfect when it comes to guessing what is in someone else's mind.

I Thessalonians 4:16-4:18 (Joe Focht) | Blue Letter Bible Audio

 

[ZNP]

You're suggesting the rapture will be like Christmas morning? except that the real "Santa" will be taking all the good stuff out of the world? I think that understanding is upside down. Considering its comparison is to that of the days of Noah and the days of Lot, that which is taken are all those complacent toward that day as if it were only a fanciful legend. The disciples asked, "where?" and Jesus answered, essentially, "on the spot where they fall. there the eagles (i.e. scavengers, as in vultures) will gather (to scavenge their dead carcasses). So that morning will not so much be anything like Christmas as those blessed of the Lord will escape with their lives, and remain, that is be left. So, even if that's only 6%, the economy will be just fine, considering these will all have a good root in the Lord, who teaches us to give thanks for everything, even if it's just seven loaves of bread that He blesses to feed five thousand.

I am not pointing to a day, but I am saying that Christmas depicts the apostasy and the polarization of the Christians. You will have genuine believers the night before worshipping the Lord Jesus while many others who think that Santa Claus and magical reindeer and mysterious elves are somehow related to their worship of their god. The midnight cry will come and all of these who are worshipping dead trees and idols and materialism will wake up to discover they have exchanged the great God and His kingdom for some garbage from the Mall.

Santa, the fat man in a red suit that sneaks into your house at night, he is an anagram for Satan.

Reindeer flying to every house in the night is a mockery of the rapture.

Parents teach their kids these lies according to the stratagem of the evil one so that when they realize they have been lied to they think the Bible and Jesus lied to them. Which is why they equate the Bible with these myths and wives tales.

The letter to Santa is training kids to pray for materialism as though the latest video game is what they need. Kids learn that it is really their parents who get this stuff so it makes it hard for them to really have faith when praying to God the Father in the heavens.

Then look at the hymns, half of them are wonderful worship songs like Hark the Herald Angels sing, and half of them are worldly and fleshly like Jingle Bells.

There is a verse in the OT, I think it is in Micah where God says He hates "our feasts and holy days" and that He will turn our songs and hymns to mourning.

Christmas is the one feast that the Christians have that is associated with Christmas songs and it is easy to see why God would hate this. I suspect the tribulation will begin before thanksgiving so that those Christmas hymns will be like rubbing salt in their wounds and reminding them of how fleshly and materialistic their phony worship had been.

 

[Mem]

I am not pointing to a day, but I am saying that Christmas depicts the apostasy and the polarization of the Christians. You will have genuine believers the night before worshipping the Lord Jesus while many others who think that Santa Claus and magical reindeer and mysterious elves are somehow related to their worship of their god. The midnight cry will come and all of these who are worshipping dead trees and idols and materialism will wake up to discover they have exchanged the great God and His kingdom for some garbage from the Mall.

Santa, the fat man in a red suit that sneaks into your house at night, he is an anagram for Satan.

Reindeer flying to every house in the night is a mockery of the rapture.

Parents teach their kids these lies according to the stratagem of the evil one so that when they realize they have been lied to they think the Bible and Jesus lied to them. Which is why they equate the Bible with these myths and wives tales.

The letter to Santa is training kids to pray for materialism as though the latest video game is what they need. Kids learn that it is really their parents who get this stuff so it makes it hard for them to really have faith when praying to God the Father in the heavens.

Then look at the hymns, half of them are wonderful worship songs like Hark the Herald Angels sing, and half of them are worldly and fleshly like Jingle Bells.

In all things, as well as in individuals observing worship protocols, I leave God to judge the things of the spirit. This is the gist of reference toward the time that "two will be in the field, one will be taken one will be left." God will do the taking and the leaving, judging between two different individuals engaged in the same occupation, one doing such in the right and the other operating in the wrong spirit.

 

[ZNP]

Do you think the tares get raptured first? how do you make a pre-trib verse out of this?

I know pre-tribbers can be very creative. I am curious to know.

The word says that the angels gather the tares into bundles to be burned, but doesn't say they get burned prior to the rapture. Right now we are seeing a polarization of Christians. You have those who are vehemently LGBTQ and you have those who stand with the word of God.

Consider how hypocritical this is. I am a Gideon, it is a ministry for men. Many of these men are married and after a few years the wives wanted to be involved as well so they created the Gideon's auxiliary ministry for the wives. We have youth ministry, we have women's ministries, we have campus ministries, we have ministries for all kinds of areas that don't include everyone. But what ministries do we have for men who are working professionals or retired? Yet half the churches will not allow the Gideon's to speak at their meeting because we believe that marriage is between one man and one woman.

As Gideon's we will distribute Bibles free to anyone regardless. We have no qualification for someone who wants to receive a Bible. Yet the LGBTQ community will not allow anyone to say that the Bible is the word of God. If you do not subscribe to their interpretation and agree to remove all the verses from the Bible that condemns them of sin, then they will have nothing to do with you. This is God's sovereignty, this is how He gathers the tares into bundles, they will create their own LGBTQ church that subscribes to their doctrines which include rejecting Bible verses they don't agree with.

 

[ZNP]

The Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, part 2

Zechariah 5:1 I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll. 2 He asked me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.”

These dimensions refer to the door to the Holy of Holies in the Temple. When the Lord comes He says He is at the door. When this door opens the first thing that happens is He sends out his angels to bundle up the Tares to be burned. This doesn't mean they are burned yet, only that they are bound. Then He gathers the wheat into His barn. That is the rapture. So then just like Paul told us we don't need to know dates and times, what we need to be aware of is when the angels are gathering up the tares to be bound. The forensic audit of the election is doing that. Durhams investigation into the FISA warrant scandal and the Russia hoax is doing that. The Ghislaine Maxwell trial into pedophile island and all the elites is doing that. There are rumors of a war going on between the US military ("white hats") and a network of underground bunkers and facilities all connected by maglev trains. It may be that the invasion in Ukraine is also doing that.

3 And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished.

This word "curse" in Hebrew is a very serious word for an eternal judgement or curse like that of the tares to be burned. There are two categories of crimes, those that are the thief doing the stealing and those who are doing the lying to hide what is taking place. We have two kinds of criminals being rounded up right now, those involved in the theft including human trafficking and those who are involved in the lying about it. The mainstream media, people like Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon are being implicated in this crime. We are seeing the "angels" go gather them up. Some are claiming "we have all the evidence of the election fraud", others are saying that Durham had all the evidence of the FISA scandal for the last two years and was simply waiting for the opportune time. The Hunter Biden Laptop from Hell is now a runaway best seller book and so we have the evidence we need to convict and prosecute all of those thefts. There is another book on Fauci and his involvement in the Pandemic. Already we are seeing the pieces getting put together on that theft. Paul told us these were the big signs, the things we would see and the Lord told us the same thing that first we would see the tares being gathered up, bound, and then later tossed into the fire. One aspect of the gospel is that we would have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness. If you heeded that then this current rounding up might be nothing more than "rumors of war" to you, but that is a good thing. I have heard of people saying they hear explosions taking place underground. According to some accounts there is a full fledged war going on beneath the surface where we can't see.

4 The Lord Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.’”

Again, this is what we are seeing. This did not take place in a single day. Durham has been involved in his investigation for about two years, the election fraud investigations about one year, the Hunter Biden laptop from hell about one year, and the Pandemic is now about 18 months to two years for that investigation. What the Lord says here about destroying it completely is very similar to Trump's "drain the swamp" slogan. This is a great promise, it will be destroyed completely. He isn't going to simply break a few windows, he will be rooting up the tares from the roots so they are completely removed. This reminds me of the Lord's word that not one stone would be left upon another of the temple.

The tribulation has been misrepresented by many believers and especially by Hollywood. The appearance of the AntiChrist is part of an organized retreat. To my understanding the war takes place in three stages. Right now we are in the first stage of rounding up the tares and binding them for the fire. I believe this stage began in 2018. This will culminate in the rapture of the first fruits. That will be when all the sleeping Christians will be rebuked and ashamed. It will also be when Satan is cast out of heaven to the Earth. It is like the battle of Britain where Germany lost control of the air as the US air force wore them down. Then D day would be like the situation for the believers left on the Earth, they are now waking up to a ground campaign.

Meanwhile there will be a holocaust where a third of the people on the Earth die. This is retribution for them killing a third of all Jews during the holocaust. Think of the AntiChrist as being similar to Hitler after D day, he is surrounded, all he gets is bad news and the day of judgement is closing in on him. Meanwhile he is viciously killing about 2 billion people. Yes, there will be Christian martyrs at this time but that will be considered a major victory. Not only so but during this time you will have a massive revival on earth greater than anything we have ever seen prior. Then of course there will also be Armageddon, but that will be the last gasp desperate attempt just like the Battle of the Bulge and that will be a massive concluding defeat to AntiChrist and His armies.

I see Satan and his angels being sent to Earth and the establishment of AntiChrist as a further way in which the tares are bundled. The tares will be attracted to Antichrist, they will join "the nazi party", they will join "the gestapo", etc.

Where are we right now? We have fought and defeated Rommel, we also fought in Italy. Britain was able to withstand a despicable bombing. The air war is turning the tide. Initially we didn't have the news outlets and tech platforms, but now we have them and the polls have flipped and we are now winning in the air. We are preparing for the D day invasion. Biden should have pressed his advantage after January 6th, so that is a major blunder of theirs to wait, and now blaming everything on Russia including blowing up their own gas pipeline, it is like Germany attacking Russia and being caught in this war that will destroy them. No one is buying the idea that Russia blew it up and everyone is seeing that it was the US.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The word says that the angels gather the tares into bundles to be burned, but doesn't say they get burned prior to the rapture. Right now we are seeing a polarization of Christians. You have those who are vehemently LGBTQ and you have those who stand with the word of God.

Consider how hypocritical this is. I am a Gideon, it is a ministry for men. Many of these men are married and after a few years the wives wanted to be involved as well so they created the Gideon's auxiliary ministry for the wives. We have youth ministry, we have women's ministries, we have campus ministries, we have ministries for all kinds of areas that don't include everyone. But what ministries do we have for men who are working professionals or retired? Yet half the churches will not allow the Gideon's to speak at their meeting because we believe that marriage is between one man and one woman.

As Gideon's we will distribute Bibles free to anyone regardless. We have no qualification for someone who wants to receive a Bible. Yet the LGBTQ community will not allow anyone to say that the Bible is the word of God. If you do not subscribe to their interpretation and agree to remove all the verses from the Bible that condemns them of sin, then they will have nothing to do with you. This is God's sovereignty, this is how He gathers the tares into bundles, they will create their own LGBTQ church that subscribes to their doctrines which include rejecting Bible verses they don't agree with.

ZNP
A personal thank you to you & your brethren.
I have benefited from those wonderful Bibles placed in hotels/ guest houses. Once I was heading to a remote area
and couldn't afford to pack a book in my rucksack (weight). Another time I simply forgot my bible on a week's holiday.
I prayed on the train & when I arrived at my accomodation there was that beautiful answer to prayer. A Bible placed by
The Gideons in the bedside cabinet! They are literally a God-send.

 

[cv5]

You missed it buddy....there is no pre-trib or any other rapture in the tribulation or SC.
OK bro....hope this helps. Even though I have my doubts about your uptake capacity.

Mat 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that (the informed and faithful) Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39
And (THEY) knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Just tying this together here for you....

Mat 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[cv5]

Men in heaven? Really?
Wow...looks like the rapture has happen waaaay back in Rev 4-5 before any tribulation seals haven been opened.

Rev 5:2
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Rev 5:3
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:4
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

 

[presidente]

You missed it buddy....there is no pre-trib or any other rapture in the tribulation or SC.
OK bro....hope this helps. Even though I have my doubts about your uptake capacity.

Mat 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that (the informed and faithful) Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39
And (THEY) knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Again, the rsprure occurs at the coming of Christ, ando does the resurrection according to Paul. 'That wicked' is destroyed
at the brightness of his coming according to Paul also.

 

[ZNP]

Again, the rsprure occurs at the coming of Christ, ando does the resurrection according to Paul. 'That wicked' is destroyed
at the brightness of his coming according to Paul also.

Wow what a simple doctrine, no gray area. Almost makes me wonder about the five foolish virgins who didn't have oil in their lamps or about the servant who buried the talent in the backyard. Were they "destroyed at the brightness of His coming".

In America we have those who graduate with honors, we also have those who have to go to summer school and still others who have to get their GED, but apparently your vision of God is not nearly so merciful, either you graduate on time or you are destroyed with the wicked.

 

[cv5]

Again, the rsprure occurs at the coming of Christ, ando does the resurrection according to Paul. 'That wicked' is destroyed
at the brightness of his coming according to Paul also.

Presidente.....I'm really afraid that you don't get it buddy. And you don't want to know either.

Not cool bro. No bueno.