Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[presidente]

Not the case.

The Greek text in verse 7 does NOT say, "WILL RECEIVE rest..."

I'm not sure why that is a signifcant point to the discussion, but let us look at these verses.


6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Don't some of you pre-tribbers say the return with the angels is the second coming? How does the persecuted __church__ here receive rest when Jesus returns with His angels.... at the second coming?

 

[cv5]

I'm not sure why that is a signifcant point to the discussion, but let us look at these verses.


6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Don't some of you pre-tribbers say the return with the angels is the second coming? How does the persecuted __church__ here receive rest when Jesus returns with His angels.... at the second coming?

You do realize that you fail to note (and grasp) the dozens and dozens of scriptures (let alone the sweeping idioms, types and themes) that one must needs reference regarding the pre-trib rapture? Right?

There is a veritable symphony of scripture to support the pre-trib rapture. Post-trib always sounds like a broken reed flute to me......

 

[Jackson123]

I'm not sure why that is a signifcant point to the discussion, but let us look at these verses.


6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Don't some of you pre-tribbers say the return with the angels is the second coming? How does the persecuted __church__ here receive rest when Jesus returns with His angels.... at the second coming?

Good point

 

[presidente]

The passage states, "Blessed and holy is the [one] having A PART in the resurrection the first [adjective]"... and we see that Greek word "first [adjective]" used elsewhere translated as "chief" where Paul says of himself that he is the "chief [adjective; same Greek word] of sinners" but this doesn't mean first-in-time to have ever occurred, right? Things can either be "first-in-time" or "first-in-quality"...

This is a prime example of the pretribber trying to work around the passage somehow to make it fit with pre-trib. The 'evidence' for pre-trib time after time is some kind of way to make it work with problem passages. No one ever presents a verse that shows that the 'parousia' is multiple events. No one ever quotes a verse that lays out a time sequence with a rapture before the tribulation. Instead, posts try to explain away passages about what happens at the second coming saying that isn't talking about the same coming as the rapture.

Can you find any examples of 'protws' being used to mean 'chief' where 'first' doesn't kind of make sense in translation? In context, it makes sense to translate it as 'chief' in some cases, but it is a number word that has a bit broader meaning. It doesn't lose it's numeric meaning. We don't get to just choose a translation of it,and strip it of its numerical meaning, whenever doing so fit with our eschatology.

Jesus called that commandment about loving God the first and greatest commandment. We might say that has the sense of 'chief' , but that is clear from context if we know about the Bible and commandments. Herod had a chief for 'first' men of Galilee'. Jesus taught that whoever would be 'first' shall be the servant of all.

Revelation 20:
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Notice first resurrection, second death. There is a flow of argument here. First and second are both numeric terms. Why would first mean 'chief?' That's the problem with pre-trib. How in the world would a first century reader read any of these documents and come away with a pre-trib understanding?

... and another evidence of this fact is that 1Cor15:22b-23 [re: resurrection] speaks of the future occurrences in the following way: "but each [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK," meaning,

Look at the passage.

I Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ is in the first 'band' or 'order'. The second band is 'they that are his at his coming.' One interpretation is that the third band, the unrighteous, are raised later. The book of Revelation shows a later resurrection.

But this passage just shows two bands-- Christ and they that are his. The second band is resurrected at Christ's coming. This is evidence against the pre-trib rapture theory.

 

[presidente]

You do realize that you fail to note (and grasp) the dozens and dozens of scriptures (let alone the sweeping idioms, types and themes) that one must needs reference regarding the pre-trib rapture? Right?

You have to interpret words and phrases certain ways to make pre-trib make sense. You have to have a 'filter' that allows for it... for imagining one verse for the 'parousia', which is treated as one event in scripture, refers to one event in a pretrib system, and another verse that mentions that parousia arbitrarily is determined to refer to another events.

There is a veritable symphony of scripture to support the pre-trib rapture. Post-trib always sounds like a broken reed flute to me......

Why are pre-trib interpretations so strained... a seem more like excuses to try to hold the system together?

I was raised being taught pre-trib, but when I actually sat down and studied eschatology passages, pre-trib wasn't there. I was expecting a rapture to be mentioned in the book of Revelation. Eventually, I came to realize some passages just contradict pre-trib, like II Thessalonians 1. Pre-trib attempts at reconciling these passages with pre-trib are extremely strained.

Pre-trib doesn't deserve to be the 'default' view. When the Bible teaches various events happen at the return of Christ, then the burden of proof is one pre-tribbers to show that the return of Christ is actually returns of Christ... multiple events. Something like that is a really, really big assertion. The idea that tribulational saints are appointed unto wrath isn't a good argument for pre-trib. John being told 'Come up hither' in a vision isn't good evidence for pre-trib.

I think the appeal to pre-trib can be more emotional than intellectual in some cases-- really, really not wanting to suffer.

 

[GaryA]

What do you make of these verses?

Luk 22:29
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Luk 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And...?

(I know you want to make a point - so, just make it.)

 

[GaryA]

Enjoy playing your banjo and ignoring the finest biblical scholarship available.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I think he is probably better off with the banjo...

 

[cv5]

You have to interpret words and phrases certain ways to make pre-trib make sense. You have to have a 'filter' that allows for it... for imagining one verse for the 'parousia', which is treated as one event in scripture, refers to one event in a pretrib system, and another verse that mentions that parousia arbitrarily is determined to refer to another events.



Why are pre-trib interpretations so strained... a seem more like excuses to try to hold the system together?

I was raised being taught pre-trib, but when I actually sat down and studied eschatology passages, pre-trib wasn't there. I was expecting a rapture to be mentioned in the book of Revelation. Eventually, I came to realize some passages just contradict pre-trib, like II Thessalonians 1. Pre-trib attempts at reconciling these passages with pre-trib are extremely strained.

Pre-trib doesn't deserve to be the 'default' view. When the Bible teaches various events happen at the return of Christ, then the burden of proof is one pre-tribbers to show that the return of Christ is actually returns of Christ... multiple events. Something like that is a really, really big assertion. The idea that tribulational saints are appointed unto wrath isn't a good argument for pre-trib. John being told 'Come up hither' in a vision isn't good evidence for pre-trib.

I think the appeal to pre-trib can be more emotional than intellectual in some cases-- really, really not wanting to suffer.

"....gather ye FIRST the tares"

"The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather OUT of his Kingdom all things that offend"

"...He shall send His angels, and shall gather together His elect"

Nope.....no rapture happening here. Both the sequence and the mechanisms are completely different. Not to mention that Paul never spoke of any of these matters as pertaining to the Church.

 

[GaryA]

Well here is a good reference. I wonder what the time of transport from point A to point B would be? Quick I'm sure...

Act 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

caught away
PHRASE
g726
ἥρπασεν ἁρπάζωharpazō

Something else. I wonder what span of time it took between the command and the transformation from a 4 day old corpse to vibrant flesh and blood? Probably pretty quick.....

Jhn 11:43
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Wonder all you want - but, the Bible does not tell us...

 

[cv5]

And...?

(I know you want to make a point - so, just make it.)

Oh......just something about this being a component of the fulfilment of Daniels 70th week prophecy, Dan 12, etc. etc.

Yes you missed the obvious point but don't worry about it buddy......

 

[presidente]

"....gather ye FIRST the tares"

"The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather OUT of his Kingdom all things that offend"

"...He shall send His angels, and shall gather together His elect"

Nope.....no rapture happening here. Both the sequence and the mechanisms are completely different. Not to mention that Paul never spoke of any of these matters as pertaining to the Church.

I do not get what your point is or how you think this supports pre-trib. He doesn't tell the reapers to harvest the wheat before the tares.

 

[presidente]

You do realize that you fail to note (and grasp) the dozens and dozens of scriptures (let alone the sweeping idioms, types and themes) that one must needs reference regarding the pre-trib rapture? Right?

There is a veritable symphony of scripture to support the pre-trib rapture. Post-trib always sounds like a broken reed flute to me......

A problem with this sort of thing is that you can't point to any individual themes that support pre-trib, but instead try to see it as some overarching theme.

How would any of Paul's readers or the readers of the book of Revelation or readers of the Gospel, who got one of these documents and read it, have come away believing in pre-trib.

If none of the individual books teach it, it doesn't make sense to argue that in the aggregate they predict pretrib. I have also seen a man who was gung ho about full preterism who had this elaborate system where so many things seemed to fit together... in his mind... to support preterism. The problem is contradicting some rather direct teachings of scripture.

 

[cv5]

A problem with this sort of thing is that you can't point to any individual themes that support pre-trib, but instead try to see it as some overarching theme.

Oh there's been plenty of pointing. It's the seeing that's the problem. Fortunately not my problem.

 

[cv5]

I do not get what your point

Exactly. Regardless of how many times those very same scriptures have been used on these rapture threads. Tragic really.....

 

[presidente]

Oh there's been plenty of pointing. It's the seeing that's the problem. Fortunately not my problem.

Can you show me a verse or verses that say that Jesus is returning twice, or a passage that lays out a sequence of events that shows that the rapture is pretrib?

 

[presidente]

Exactly. Regardless of how many times those very same scriptures have been used on these rapture threads. Tragic really.....

The wheat is not raptured out before the tares. They are harvested together.

 

[Clayman]

A problem with this sort of thing is that you can't point to any individual themes that support pre-trib, but instead try to see it as some overarching theme.

How would any of Paul's readers or the readers of the book of Revelation or readers of the Gospel, who got one of these documents and read it, have come away believing in pre-trib.

If none of the individual books teach it, it doesn't make sense to argue that in the aggregate they predict pretrib. I have also seen a man who was gung ho about full preterism who had this elaborate system where so many things seemed to fit together... in his mind... to support preterism. The problem is contradicting some rather direct teachings of scripture.

Just a quick question, if you believe the return of the Lord and the rapture happen at the end of the tribulation, does that mean you see all believers resurrected and or transformed into our eternal bodies then caught up to Christ as Hes descending to the earth. Does that mean only non believers are left on earth? And is there a millennial kingdom according to your view. Sorry if this is not what you believe for if it's not, my question will be pointless.

In Israel the physical kingdom that is set up by the Lord for 1000 years, is it only immortal saints that dwell there? And I guess the same for the nations like Egypt that are set up, are they at the start of the millennium all non believers dwelling there from your viewpoint?

Apologies if you don't believe this way I guess the questions may be irrelevant but please correct my assumptions as I havnt read all your posts just assuming some common post trib viewpoints.

 

[ZNP]

The Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, part 1

5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Why are Christians so concerned about times and dates? They refer to them as "high watch dates", they feel like here is where we really need to be paying attention. But Paul says you don't need that because we have something else that we will see. We will see that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. According to Paul if we understand that then we don't need times and dates. I have repeatedly returned to this verse and I believe it is because I have only been scratching the surface and the Lord is demanding I look at this again.

Luke 12:39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.

This verse is repeated in Matthew and Luke. When the Lord says "understand this" it doesn't mean that we won't know when the thief is coming, rather it means this is the reason the house was broken into. This "house" could refer to the infiltration of the US with this communist agenda to defund the police and overthrow the government. It could refer to a "globalist" infiltration and takeover of our political representatives who have an agenda to destroy the US currency which would force us into this globalist union. It could refer to the stolen election. It could refer to George Soros, and Mark Zuckerberg financing all kinds of corruption behind the scenes. It could refer to the apostasy of the church and the infiltration of organized Christianity with false brothers. The point I'm making is that all of these things are signs to us letting us know the Lord is coming and they are far more useful that dates and times. If you read this we are supposed to be preventing the thief from breaking into our house and in Luke He talks about giving the saints the proper food at the proper time. Therefore the recent declaration about Chrislam, that is a major sign that the Lord is coming.

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

This verse tells us the same thing but from a different angle. I consider the church in Sardis to represent the Protestant Denominational churches. All of these churches had a wonderful start where they had received some new revelation from the Bible and they held it fast. But then at the end of the age there is a new revelation and they have completely forgotten how to receive new light. For over a century they have been drugged with this "no one knows the day and the hour" as though that absolves them from watching or even guarding the house from the thief. The Lord is telling them if you don't wake up now when you do wake up you will realize you have been robbed and you will be ashamed. But this also is a great sign to us that at the end of the age there will be this apostasy and all these Christian denominational churches who are asleep and refuse to wake up. For some of us we can't believe that some are still clueless about what the pandemic and vaccine are all about, or the plan for one world currency, or for a vaccine passport, or the many other indications that a thief has come.

Jeremiah 2:26 As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets,

This is really a very great sign, the rapture of the church will leave many believers ashamed. Everyone talks about not knowing when the rapture will take place. Fine, forget about that, how about knowing how to avoid getting robbed? No one would be so foolish as to say there is nothing we can do about not getting robbed. You can lock the door, you can get an alarm system, you can get a dog, you can buy a safe. If someone were going to break into your house and steal something of high value how long would it take them? Could they do it in less than 5 minutes or would then need at least 30 minutes? Would they need a truck or could they put the valuables in their pocket and simply walk away? Most police can respond to a call within five minutes. Most thieves are going to want a get away car. My point is that it is relatively simple to prevent your house from being robbed. So then if you do wake up after the rapture and you were robbed it is going to be very embarrassing to those who were supposed to be keeping guard. But look at this verse: their kings, their princes, their priests and their prophets! Wow, that is everyone that you put your trust in has failed you.

2Sam 15:6 And this Absalom did to everyone in Israel who came to the king to have his cause judged: so Absalom, like a thief, took away the hearts of the men of Israel.

This story is a direct example of "the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night". If you saw Absalom in the gates of the city stealing the hearts of the men of Israel you would know the insurrection was about to take place. This would be a great sign. David was caught by surprise and barely escaped. But this really reveals what the Lord means by the day coming as a thief in the night. The thief is "stealing the hearts of men". That is what the apostasy is, that is what CRT is, that is what the defund the police movement funded by marxist is. For four years we heard a non stop barrage attacking the President with an "orange man is bad" narrative designed to steal the hearts of men. That should have been a very big sign to us.

What Paul is saying is that if we are focused on preventing our house from being broken into we would have woken up much sooner than any teaching on dates and times. Also, the point is not to be awake for the sake of being awake but rather to prevent the thief from breaking into the house and robbing it. So then focusing on making the house secure is by far the more needful message. The apostasy was a big wake up for many, the election fraud was a big wake up call for many, this horrendous exit from Afghanistan was a big wake up call for many. But to prevent the house from being robbed we need to pray.

Joel 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

Joel describes this worldwide pandemic as a thief sneaking into people's houses like a thief. This pandemic with all the lies has woken up many more people that there is a thief breaking into the house.

 

[presidente]

Just a quick question, if you believe the return of the Lord and the rapture happen at the end of the tribulation, does that mean you see all believers resurrected and or transformed into our eternal bodies then caught up to Christ as Hes descending to the earth. Does that mean only non believers are left on earth? And is there a millennial kingdom according to your view. Sorry if this is not what you believe for if it's not, my question will be pointless.

I Thessalonians teaches that the dead in Christ shall rise first, and they that are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The same epistle teaches that the Lord will come with His saints. The word translated 'coming' is parousia. Back when this was written, when an important official came into the city, the people of the city might come out to meet him and escort him into the city. Think of something like the triumphal entry. I believe Christ is returning to the earth.... with His saints which will be newly transformed or resurrected.

In Israel the physical kingdom that is set up by the Lord for 1000 years, is it only immortal saints that dwell there? And I guess the same for the nations like Egypt that are set up, are they at the start of the millennium all non believers dwelling there from your viewpoint?

My understanding is that there will be mortal survivors.

 

[cv5]

The wheat is not raptured out before the tares. They are harvested together.

Not so....

Mat 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Who and what exactly is happening here is perfectly clear to the pre-tribbers. Perfectly clear.