Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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1Co 1:7
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Hmmm no mention of the man of sin, guillotines, and God's wrath coming upon believers here.
Or anywhere else in any other epistle....
. Because we are NOT appointed to God's wrath.
I mean......you would think Paul would have warned believers of their inevitable grisly fate if this were a concern...right?
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Hmmm no mention of the man of sin, guillotines, and God's wrath coming upon believers here.
Or anywhere else in any other epistle....
. Because we are NOT appointed to God's wrath.I mean......you would think Paul would have warned believers of their inevitable grisly fate if this were a concern...right?
I hear the criticism of pre-tribbers not having a mindset that is prepared for persecution, but your post really exemplifies it. You should read a bit of history and what is going on now. In the first centuries of Christianity, Christians would refuse the burn incense to a Roman god-- and they had a ceremony in at least one city where they considered the emperor to be a god and burned incense to him. There is a tradition that the Lord' Jesus' martyr Antipas, mentioned in the book of Revelation, was burned inside an idol for not burning incense to the emperor. They'd kill the Christians. Christians were persecuted for not denying their faith. They fed Christians to the lions in front of crowds. They may have even trained certain animals to rape the women as a form of torture.
Have you read about Christians being tortured in the Russian gulags under Communist rule? How about the brutal workcamps of the Chinese a few decades ago, or the brutal treatment of Christians by the North Koreans?
Have you heard about ISIS soldiers chopping Christian's heads off? Those people got killed, physically, just as dead as the people who get killed in Revelation.
Paul said if we suffer with Him, we will also reign with Him. But western Christian pre-trib fits well with a cushy developed-country life-style. We live comfortably. We have our rights. Why worry about persecution and suffering? Isn't that for those sub-par tribulational saints who weren't faithful and believing enough to make it up in the first load?
But the Bible does not present the tribulational saints as subpar. It talks about them as overcomers, and whether it refers to our generation or not, we should all see them as heroes, and if we suffer, draw inspiration from these passages, which add a bit in the Bible to the theology of martyrdom. It is from Revelation, partly, that I realized that it is honorable to be a martyr, and to suffer for Jesus.
Please show chapter and verse. if you mean John being told to 'come up hither' as some sort of evidence for the whole church being raptured before the tribulation, that idea seems so bizarre and ridiculous that it is a good reason not to be a pre-tribber, and a ridiculous example of the wildest allegorical interpretation from an eschatology that is supposed to be based on literal interpretation.
If 'come up hither' is the evidence for pre-trib rapture, why bother being pre-trib? Why not just stuck with Paul's more straightforward teachings instead of the wild allegorical interpretation?
This is what we call circular reasoning. The passage says nothing about the wife being in heaven. But pre-trib says the wife is in heaven. And since pretrib says the wife is in heaven, then the verse is interpreted to mean the wife is in heaven. And you use the verse to say the wife is in heaven.
The thing is with a lot of pre-tribbers, they see things through the pre-trib filter, not what the passage actually says. Show us some evidence from the passage that the bride is in heaven. Why would she be in heaven before the rapture and the resurrection of the dead that occurs at Jesus' coming according to I Thessalonians 4? Don't most pre-tribbers believe disembodied spirits are in heaven, also?
God is NOT going to PUNISH His Bride along with a Christ rejecting world during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation.
This message is very consistent everywhere in Scripture....including the OT.
Nobody can refute this fact.....
This message is very consistent everywhere in Scripture....including the OT.
Nobody can refute this fact.....
Revelation 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
What about Stephen and the early martyrs who died, including most of the apostles, according to tradition? Do you think God was punishing them? Do you think God punished Antipas, mentioned in Revelation? Was God punishing Paul and Silas when they were beaten and imprisoned?
You seem to have a very warped idea about persecution and suffering for Christ.
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God is NOT going to PUNISH His Bride along with a Christ rejecting world during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation.
This message is very consistent everywhere in Scripture....including the OT.
Nobody can refute this fact.....
This message is very consistent everywhere in Scripture....including the OT.
Nobody can refute this fact.....
... but the tribulation is not God's wrath, this also is very consistent everywhere in scripture. In the WORLD you will have tribulation, tribulation is persecution, the great tribulation is the great end-times persecution we are warned about.
This the western church is not prepared for.
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@cv5
I just want to clarify some recent conversation. Is this your stance?
- That pre-trib is the right interpretation because it 'fits' all the passages.
- That the actual scripture that shows the pre-trib rapture happening is when John hears 'Come up hither' in the vision?
- That another piece of evidence for pre-trib is that the wife is in heaven ready for the wedding in Revelation 19, although the passage says absolutely nothing about the wife being in heaven?
Do you have any other specific evidence for pre-trib?
Another question, given the type of evidence you present for pre-trib, why do you hold to the doctrine so strongly? If that is your evidence, why not hold to post-trib?
I just want to clarify some recent conversation. Is this your stance?
- That pre-trib is the right interpretation because it 'fits' all the passages.
- That the actual scripture that shows the pre-trib rapture happening is when John hears 'Come up hither' in the vision?
- That another piece of evidence for pre-trib is that the wife is in heaven ready for the wedding in Revelation 19, although the passage says absolutely nothing about the wife being in heaven?
Do you have any other specific evidence for pre-trib?
Another question, given the type of evidence you present for pre-trib, why do you hold to the doctrine so strongly? If that is your evidence, why not hold to post-trib?
You are woefully mistaken...
Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth
Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
You are woefully mistaken...
Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth
Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
But before these things will be the great tribulation or persecution of the church.
There will be worldwide rebellion against God and the man of rebellion will be revealed who opposeth everything called god or that is worshipped as God.
That's YOU he will be opposing, try to wipe you out.
He will not invade the temple to declare himself as God until he thinks he has irradicated all religion. Then he will be destroyed.
In the Church age, trials and tribulations are NOT due to God's wrath. Christians suffer in Satans kingdom, yes.
But God wrath is Gods righteous JUDGEMENT. That which Jesus suffered for us.
We only get pruned and refined. We only receive grace and mercy unending, without limitation. And Gods refining hand for Christians is a MERCY.....NOT punishment, NOT judgement.
Furthermore.....the Church age is OVER after the rapture. Then the 70th week of Daniel begins. Tribulation saints are NOT the Bride of Christ....they are WEDDING GUESTS. And have a peculiar service and rank in Gods first resurrection.
But God wrath is Gods righteous JUDGEMENT. That which Jesus suffered for us.
We only get pruned and refined. We only receive grace and mercy unending, without limitation. And Gods refining hand for Christians is a MERCY.....NOT punishment, NOT judgement.
Furthermore.....the Church age is OVER after the rapture. Then the 70th week of Daniel begins. Tribulation saints are NOT the Bride of Christ....they are WEDDING GUESTS. And have a peculiar service and rank in Gods first resurrection.
To say that Rev 19:15 (describing the SC) pertains to believing Christians is ridiculous. And there is zero indication that the rapture happens in the context of these verses. On the contrary, we have already been raptured waaaaay back in Rev 4&5.
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
You are woefully mistaken...
Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth
Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
There is no evidence in these passages that God is angry with the saints during the tribulation. Do you disagree?
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Do you think the tribulational saints suffering difficulties will be pruned and refined by it, or do you think they will be receiving God's wrath?
I know you pull in all kinds of verses and have theories built around them. What I have been asking is some kind of evidence for the rapture occurring before the tribulation and there being two returns of Christ... from scripture. This is not the same thing as creating a pre-trib scenario that pulls in verses and tries to explain them and make them fit the pre-trib assumption. I wan't Biblical evidence for the pre-trib assumption. So far, you have referred to a passage where John is told 'Come up hither' before he has a vision. That's an uber-flimsly argument for coming up with a whole other return of Christ.
I know you pull in all kinds of verses and have theories built around them. What I have been asking is some kind of evidence for the rapture occurring before the tribulation and there being two returns of Christ... from scripture. This is not the same thing as creating a pre-trib scenario that pulls in verses and tries to explain them and make them fit the pre-trib assumption. I wan't Biblical evidence for the pre-trib assumption. So far, you have referred to a passage where John is told 'Come up hither' before he has a vision. That's an uber-flimsly argument for coming up with a whole other return of Christ.
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