Church Doctrine VS. God's Word

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T

Thewatchman

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#1
Church doctrine vs. God's word



Church Doctrine Gods Word

#1. God's word is truth God's word is truth

#2. God is all seeing and all knowing God is all seeing and all knowing

#3. Jesus died on the cross for our sins Jesus died for our sins

#4. God is 3 in one, God the Father, God is the 3 in one, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit

God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit



I would have to say that 99.9% of all christian churches would agree with these 4 beliefs.

Lets look at one that is a little more tricky That is baptism There Are those that say you must be baptized before you are saved They use scripture like Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation.

Lets look at the other side of the coin Ephesians 2:8&9 8.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9.Not of works, lest any man should boast. If we include baptism into salvation that means that it is not just the blood of Jesus that forgives but it is the blood of Jesus and my getting int o the water some putting me under the water and me getting back up and out to be saved. That is not just the blood of Jesus, and that gives me something to boast about.

Those that say you have to be baptized before you are saved let me put this to you. Lets say you live in some place like Kansas that it normally does not get cold enough to have the pipes freeze but sometimes it dose. So Saturday night they get that freak deep freeze it freezes the water pipes a church the baptismal can not be filled. Some people still show up and one person is new hears the message and wants to get saved. The pastor and several people pray with him but he can not get baptized because of the frozen pipes. He is driving on that icy road someone is going to fast looses control hits him and kills him. Is God going to send him to hell because he did not get baptized? The church doctrine says he was not baptized therefore he was not saved.

Gods word The Bible says Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

No baptism needed.

 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#3
Apr 21, 2021
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#3
Thewatchman said:
Church doctrine vs. God's word



Church Doctrine Gods Word

#1. God's word is truth God's word is truth

#2. God is all seeing and all knowing God is all seeing and all knowing

#3. Jesus died on the cross for our sins Jesus died for our sins

#4. God is 3 in one, God the Father, God is the 3 in one, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit

God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit



I would have to say that 99.9% of all christian churches would agree with these 4 beliefs.

Lets look at one that is a little more tricky That is baptism There Are those that say you must be baptized before you are saved They use scripture like Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation.

Lets look at the other side of the coin Ephesians 2:8&9 8.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9.Not of works, lest any man should boast. If we include baptism into salvation that means that it is not just the blood of Jesus that forgives but it is the blood of Jesus and my getting int o the water some putting me under the water and me getting back up and out to be saved. That is not just the blood of Jesus, and that gives me something to boast about.

Those that say you have to be baptized before you are saved let me put this to you. Lets say you live in some place like Kansas that it normally does not get cold enough to have the pipes freeze but sometimes it dose. So Saturday night they get that freak deep freeze it freezes the water pipes a church the baptismal can not be filled. Some people still show up and one person is new hears the message and wants to get saved. The pastor and several people pray with him but he can not get baptized because of the frozen pipes. He is driving on that icy road someone is going to fast looses control hits him and kills him. Is God going to send him to hell because he did not get baptized? The church doctrine says he was not baptized therefore he was not saved.

Gods word The Bible says Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

No baptism needed.
Click to expand...
Baptism isn't necessary for salvation, but it's an important first step on our walk with the Lord. We shouldn't downplay it, but encourage people to get baptized as soon as possible. The Lord commanded it and the accounts in the New Testament confirm that baptism is the norm for new believers.

But I agree with you that baptism doesn't save.
 
T

Thewatchman

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ResidentAlien said:
Baptism isn't necessary for salvation, but it's an important first step on our walk with the Lord. We shouldn't downplay it, but encourage people to get baptized as soon as possible. The Lord commanded it and the accounts in the New Testament confirm that baptism is the norm for new believers.

But I agree with you that baptism doesn't save.
Click to expand...
Jesus set the exampel He was baptized and we should be also. It is a Public declaration of our faith it is also the public example of what happened to us on the inside Jesus comes in washes our heart and soul (gives us a new heart and a new spirit)
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#5
Thewatchman said:
Jesus set the exampel He was baptized and we should be also. It is a Public declaration of our faith it is also the public example of what happened to us on the inside Jesus comes in washes our heart and soul (gives us a new heart and a new spirit)
Click to expand...
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's a lot more than a public declaration. When you reduce it to a mere formality it loses most of its importance.

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

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Thewatchman said:
Jesus set the exampel He was baptized and we should be also. It is a Public declaration of our faith it is also the public example of what happened to us on the inside Jesus comes in washes our heart and soul (gives us a new heart and a new spirit)
Click to expand...
I feel that the "watchman" would agree. :)
 
CS1

CS1

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I think you need to understand that doctrine = teaching which comes from the word of God

the doctrine of Salvation, the deity of Christ, and the eternal Godhead are all found in the word of God. Doctrine just means teaching.
 
HealthAndHappiness

HealthAndHappiness

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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#9
Thewatchman said:
Church doctrine vs. God's word



Church Doctrine Gods Word

#1. God's word is truth God's word is truth

#2. God is all seeing and all knowing God is all seeing and all knowing

#3. Jesus died on the cross for our sins Jesus died for our sins

#4. God is 3 in one, God the Father, God is the 3 in one, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit

God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit



I would have to say that 99.9% of all christian churches would agree with these 4 beliefs.

Lets look at one that is a little more tricky That is baptism There Are those that say you must be baptized before you are saved They use scripture like Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation.

Lets look at the other side of the coin Ephesians 2:8&9 8.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9.Not of works, lest any man should boast. If we include baptism into salvation that means that it is not just the blood of Jesus that forgives but it is the blood of Jesus and my getting int o the water some putting me under the water and me getting back up and out to be saved. That is not just the blood of Jesus, and that gives me something to boast about.

Those that say you have to be baptized before you are saved let me put this to you. Lets say you live in some place like Kansas that it normally does not get cold enough to have the pipes freeze but sometimes it dose. So Saturday night they get that freak deep freeze it freezes the water pipes a church the baptismal can not be filled. Some people still show up and one person is new hears the message and wants to get saved. The pastor and several people pray with him but he can not get baptized because of the frozen pipes. He is driving on that icy road someone is going to fast looses control hits him and kills him. Is God going to send him to hell because he did not get baptized? The church doctrine says he was not baptized therefore he was not saved.

Gods word The Bible says Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

No baptism needed.
Click to expand...
Good Q.

I was taught that doctrine means teaching, generally. The Bible usually uses it that way.
There's true doctrine, which includes Jesus' statements as well as the categories of fundamentals that you so aptly put 1-4.
The Bible mentioned the false doctrines too and makes that distinction.

The word "dogma" might be the term you are looking for, although there are other synonyms depending on who you talk to. Dogmas are things teachings that are generally unique to specific denominations.
They can also Include traditions and practices that aren't necessarily provable by Scripture.

I agree with you about salvation not requiring water baptism. Baptism is a basic doctrine in the Bible although it is considered a sacrament required by certain denominations. Water baptism is a first step of obedience in identifying with the Lord AFTER believing on Him for salvation. It is considered a work as is most of the Christians' walk with Him, again, following salvation. It is not a requirement to gain or maintain salvation. It's what a new family member should do as well as many other things .
 
T

Thewatchman

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2nd John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11. for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.



We had better understand the doctrine of Christ. If we want to have both The Father and The Son Look at verse 10 If there come any(Any that would your pastor, your Sunday school teacher, a gust speaker at your church . . . ) that bring not this doctrine. (what is John talking about? The teachings, the things that Jesus did and said that ended up making the Gospel and the letters and the book of Revelation which is a letter.) Receive him not into your house(Just where did they have church back then? In there homes. So if some one came into town and came to the home where church was held and brought some strange doctrine they were told to leave) Neither bid him God speed. (do not even say God Bless you ad have a good day) Verse 11 For he who greets him( Hay good to see you today pastor, put your tithe into the plate, or any thing else that would show you agree with him or her. This is what happens to you!) Shares in his evil deeds. (is your church, your place of worship teaching the things taught by Jesus, Paul, James, John . . . it is up to you to know the difference between the true gospel and the fake. If I have said it once I have said it 100 times and I will keep on saying it;



Acts 17:10-12 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11.These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12.Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

These Berean's had Paul and Silas teaching them; Paul could be said to have been the best teacher next to Jesus in the new testament; but did the Berean's take Paul at his word? No they went home and searched the scriptures (the old testament) to see if what He was teaching lined up with them. When was the last time you went to church listened to your pastor and then went home to searched the scriptures to make sure what he said was true. You should your spiritual life depends on it.



Mark 13:21-23

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Jesus makes it very clear here there will be people telling you Jesus is here we have the truth, no Jesus is over here in our church, we have the real truth;No come over here we doing we healing, we have all different types of signs and wonders happening. They will use all these things to seduce you and if possible even the elect.

Verse 23 take note of it: But take heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But take heed(pay close attention) I Jesus have foretold you a few things NO that is not what He said; He said I have foretold you all things.



One last thing and we will cut it off.

12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



12. All the things that I do, I do to stop those that are trying to make you thank that they are teaching and doing the same work as we are. Verse 13. They are nothing but false apostles deceitful workers making themselves seam as sent ones of Christ. Verses.14&15 It is no wonder for Satan himself is coming as the instead of Christ he is going to set himself up as God. It is no great thing that his ministers will be able to do the same thing; but Their end will be according to their works. They are going to pay a heave price.

There is a theme that runs through all of this and it is up to us to find the truth of God the way of God through this word. If we seek and if we ask and if we work at it He will take us by the hand and lead us through the narrow gate.


ResidentAlien said:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's a lot more than a public declaration. When you reduce it to a mere formality it loses most of its importance.

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4
Click to expand...
I did not take it lightly when I was baptized several years ago I do not think it should be taken lightly now. It should not be the center part of salvation. Jesus death on the cross the blood that He shed for me and everyone else was, is, and will always be the greatest gift ever. Greater than my wife, my kids my family.
I do not take baptism is the center peace of salvation or your christian life.
 
D

Dirtman

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#11
Jul 19, 2022
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#11
Thewatchman said:
Church doctrine vs. God's word



Church Doctrine Gods Word

#1. God's word is truth God's word is truth

#2. God is all seeing and all knowing God is all seeing and all knowing

#3. Jesus died on the cross for our sins Jesus died for our sins

#4. God is 3 in one, God the Father, God is the 3 in one, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit

God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit



I would have to say that 99.9% of all christian churches would agree with these 4 beliefs.

Lets look at one that is a little more tricky That is baptism There Are those that say you must be baptized before you are saved They use scripture like Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation.

Lets look at the other side of the coin Ephesians 2:8&9 8.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9.Not of works, lest any man should boast. If we include baptism into salvation that means that it is not just the blood of Jesus that forgives but it is the blood of Jesus and my getting int o the water some putting me under the water and me getting back up and out to be saved. That is not just the blood of Jesus, and that gives me something to boast about.

Those that say you have to be baptized before you are saved let me put this to you. Lets say you live in some place like Kansas that it normally does not get cold enough to have the pipes freeze but sometimes it dose. So Saturday night they get that freak deep freeze it freezes the water pipes a church the baptismal can not be filled. Some people still show up and one person is new hears the message and wants to get saved. The pastor and several people pray with him but he can not get baptized because of the frozen pipes. He is driving on that icy road someone is going to fast looses control hits him and kills him. Is God going to send him to hell because he did not get baptized? The church doctrine says he was not baptized therefore he was not saved.

Gods word The Bible says Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

No baptism needed.
Click to expand...
So you use some scripture to cancel out other scripture rather than to harmonize them together. Seems a dangerous approach to scripture to me.
 
T

Thewatchman

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I want to thank you to for your commits
CS1 said:
I think you need to understand that doctrine = teaching which comes from the word of God

the doctrine of Salvation, the deity of Christ, and the eternal Godhead are all found in the word of God. Doctrine just means teaching.
Click to expand...
CS1

I do understand that doctrine = teaching. The problem is that there some out there teaching 2+2=4 then there are others out there that teach 2+2=5. Just like baptism it is not a requirement for salvation. Then you have churches out there that say you must be baptized in order to be saved but that is not what the bible says.There are churches out there that say a divorced person can not be a pastor or elder but what does the bible say?

Jeremiah 3:6-8

6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
 
T

Thewatchman

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Dirtman said:
So you use some scripture to cancel out other scripture rather than to harmonize them together. Seems a dangerous approach to scripture to me.
Click to expand...
What scripture am I using to cancel out other scripture? If I have done that plese show me so I can either explain it or if I did that I am sorry I did not mean to it would have to be a misunderstanding on my part.
 
D

Dirtman

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Thewatchman said:
What scripture am I using to cancel out other scripture? If I have done that plese show me so I can either explain it or if I did that I am sorry I did not mean to it would have to be a misunderstanding on my part.
Click to expand...
Bother to read what you wrote.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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Thewatchman said:
I did not take it lightly when I was baptized several years ago I do not think it should be taken lightly now. It should not be the center part of salvation. Jesus death on the cross the blood that He shed for me and everyone else was, is, and will always be the greatest gift ever. Greater than my wife, my kids my family.
I do not take baptism is the center peace of salvation or your christian life.
Click to expand...
I agree. I'd give it second place.
 
D

Dirtman

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2ndTimothyGroup said:
I read what he wrote. I don't see a conflict or a willful attempt to cancel Scripture. Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
Ok, maybe read it again. Because it is just a matter of simple reading comprehension.
He took passages that speak about the efficacy of baptism and then he compared them to passages not about baptism and came to the conclusion, (quote) " no baptism needed".
He used passages not about baptism to cancel out the passages about baptism.
Rather than to harmonize those passages.

He also used contrapositive logic on this passage (I'll copy and paste it so it's not changed). "Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation."

He used one half of a statement here and used it to cancel the other half. In some terrible logic. The reason baptism isnt mentioned in the second half pf the statement os because those who dont believe dont get baptized. To harmonize and understand the statement here it is to use simple reading comprehension. Baptism becomes the outcome or product of believing. One who believes would then naturally be baptized and one who does jot believe would therefore not be baptized. And having not believed and subsequently therefore by default also not be baptized is condemned already.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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#18
Thewatchman said:
Jesus set the exampel He was baptized and we should be also. It is a Public declaration of our faith it is also the public example of what happened to us on the inside Jesus comes in washes our heart and soul (gives us a new heart and a new spirit)
Click to expand...
Did Ananias tell Paul to obey God's command and be water baptized as a public display? He did not. Ananias said, "What are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." Acts 22:16.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#19
ResidentAlien said:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's a lot more than a public declaration. When you reduce it to a mere formality it loses most of its importance.

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4
Click to expand...
The scripture you reference goes on to make a crucial point that many miss. Verse 5 says, IF
we have been planted together in the likeness of Jesus' death (through obedience to water baptism) we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. And that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (verse 6)
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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HealthAndHappiness said:
Good Q.

I was taught that doctrine means teaching, generally. The Bible usually uses it that way.
There's true doctrine, which includes Jesus' statements as well as the categories of fundamentals that you so aptly put 1-4.
The Bible mentioned the false doctrines too and makes that distinction.

The word "dogma" might be the term you are looking for, although there are other synonyms depending on who you talk to. Dogmas are things teachings that are generally unique to specific denominations.
They can also Include traditions and practices that aren't necessarily provable by Scripture.

I agree with you about salvation not requiring water baptism. Baptism is a basic doctrine in the Bible although it is considered a sacrament required by certain denominations. Water baptism is a first step of obedience in identifying with the Lord AFTER believing on Him for salvation. It is considered a work as is most of the Christians' walk with Him, again, following salvation. It is not a requirement to gain or maintain salvation. It's what a new family member should do as well as many other things .
Click to expand...
The Bible states water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is for remission of one's sin.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39


Ananias' instruction to the Apostle Paul, "Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord" Acts 22:16
 
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