"The rich man And Lazarus..."

Runningman · Sep 25, 2022

You seem oblivious when your own judgements fall right back into your lap. Aren’t you the one who has called me a liar repeatedly? You’re the demonizer, see?

But you don’t seem to learn from your own consequences and errors either. I thought if you tasted your own medicine enough you’d get sick of it, but you dont; actually you seem to thrive in debate and discord. You love this.

Someone told me a story yesterday about why they believe their marriage failed. It was because they always had something to say and never learned how to let things go until it was too late. A mole hill grew into a mountain and bit by bit, step by step, every single last one of their interactions devolved into an argument, name calling, demonization, etc.

At some point, no one even knew who threw the first stone, only that the stones kept flying until the bitter end.

My point is you’re part of the problem and I just need to quit feeding you and I highly recommend others do the same.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 25, 2022

Runningman said:

No, calling you a liar AFTER you've been corrected about what ECT'ers believe is the TRUTH. That is not demonizing at all. Learn the meaning of words.

Here are your problems (errors)

1. you claim that souls can die, when there is NO evidence from the Bible that immaterial souls will die.
2. you reject that "soul" is used for a person in the Bible, so ALL the verses about souls dying refer to the person dying, which means physical death, not immaterial soul death.
3. you admit that 2 human beings are the first to be thrown into the LOF, followed 1,000 years later by the devil and all his follower angels, and Rev 20:10 says plainly that "they" which includes the 2 humans will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
4. then, you reject that the rest of unbelieving mankind will suffer the SAME FATE as the first 2 humans even though they get thrown into the same LOF. That is quite illogical.

These 4 points PROVE that your view is unbiblical and WRONG.

I don't care if you even read this or not. It's not for you, but for those who follow this thread. I am pointing out your errors to them, so they will see your illogical views, and unbiblical views.

Saul-to-Paul · Sep 25, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

John 11:24-26
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Believest thou this FreeGrace2?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 25, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
How do I know that? The Bible tells me that there will only ONE resurrection of the saved, and that is "when He comes".

Saul-to-Paul said:

This IS the resurrection of the saved. Of course I believe this. Do you notice that "THE resurrection" is in the singular?

This is context for my question "How do I know that?". You claimed John saw the resurrection of believers and your "evidence" was the ascension of the Two Witnesses after God gave them life after being killed by Satan.

From post #632-

This isn't THE resurrection where ALL believers receive their glorified and immortal bodies. In fact, there have been many who were "raised to life", both in the OT and during Jesus' ministry on earth, including Jesus' very close friend, Lazarus. But NONE of them received an immortal body.

How do I know that? The Bible tells me that there will only ONE resurrection of the saved, and that is "when He comes".

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The words "when He comes" is a direct reference to the Second Advent. In the OT, there are only 2 prophesies of Jesus coming to earth.

So which of these sentences do you disagree with? For those that you do, address them and prove that the sentence isn't or can't be true.

Both of the 2 Witnesses will receive their glorified bodies WHEN every other believer receives theirs, which is WHEN Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 says just that.

So, prove me wrong.

Saul-to-Paul · Sep 25, 2022

John 11:24-26
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

FreeGrace2 you said there was only one resurrection starting with the bodies of the saints. Jesus says there is a resurrection of the soul first.

Stop being dishonest with God's Word.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 25, 2022

Saul-to-Paul said:

Where do you read about the resurrection of the soul, since the verses quote above say NOTHING about the soul.

How about reading quite a bit more carefully?

I challenge you to find ANY verse that speaks of the resurrection of the SOUL. You're not going to find any.

Saul-to-Paul · Sep 25, 2022

Let's put them together:

Revelation 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again (2 RESURRECTION) until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John 11:24-26
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (2ND RESURRECTION)
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:(1ST RESURRECTION)
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Spiritual with spiritual.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 25, 2022

Saul-to-Paul said:

I think you can't count. The resurrection in v.24 and v.25 are the SAME ONE. There is only 2 for the saved.

But since you think they speak of 2 resurrections for believers, can you explain when each one will occur? I don't mean calendar date, but rather in the sequence of things.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

These 3 passages ALL refer to TWO resurrections; one for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

Then, 1 Cor 15:23 says: But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The words " those who belong to Him" refer to believers only. And they are all resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

So, I don't know who taught you to count, but I think you need to change teachers.

Saul-to-Paul · Sep 25, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

"He that believeth" is present tense. If Jesus was talking about a saved person that died it would read "he that believed."

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

FreeGrace2 · Sep 25, 2022

Saul-to-Paul said:

I have no idea what your point is about the present tense. What you've posted doesn't make sense.

Besides, I just shared the verses that clearly TEACH that there are just two resurrections; one for the saved and one for the lost.

Didn't you read them? So, here they are again. And try counting slower this time.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

These 3 passages ALL refer to TWO resurrections; one for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

Then, 1 Cor 15:23 says: But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The words " those who belong to Him" refer to believers only. And they are all resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

Saul-to-Paul · Sep 25, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

A dead person believes doesn't make sense. A dead person believed does.

SabbathMoon · Sep 25, 2022

While I like the original post; I will either repeat or add a few things.

Lazarus was a real person.
None of the names are metaphorical or ambiguous in typical parabolic style.
The rich man was repenting, but he was certainly burned. Nothing is said about an eternity in Hades/unseen.
The rich man's attitude was one of permanent chastisement.
The implication that God even wakes the wicked from the dead is in the comparison. One can be alive and still be among the unseen.

I have no doubt this passage disproves ECT.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 26, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
I have no idea what your point is about the present tense. What you've posted doesn't make sense.

Saul-to-Paul said:

Are you talking about a spiritually dead person or a physically dead person? There is a difference.

Snacks · Sep 26, 2022

SabbathMoon said:

While I like the original post; I will either repeat or add a few things.

Lazarus was a real person.
None of the names are metaphorical or ambiguous in typical parabolic style.
The rich man was repenting, but he was certainly burned. Nothing is said about an eternity in Hades/unseen.
The rich man's attitude was one of permanent chastisement.
The implication that God even wakes the wicked from the dead is in the comparison. One can be alive and still be among the unseen.

I have no doubt this passage disproves ECT.

What’s ECT?

PennEd · Sep 26, 2022

Snacks said:

If I had to take a stab at it, I'd guess Eternal, Conscious, Torment.

Webers.Home · Sep 26, 2022

.
Jehovah's Witnesses insist that human life is entirely physical which, for
them, isn't exactly true. They hold to something called "life force" which
enables the core of one's being to exist. The life force is versatile. It can be
taken from a spirit body, transferred to a human body, and then transferred
back again to the spirit body from whence it came.

The JW life force suggests an interesting possibility. Supposing when folks
are terminated in the lake of fire per Rev 20:11-15, their life force survives
to be transferred to a spirit body; enabling them to be perfectly suited to
join the Devil and his angels per Matt 25:41, thus keeping the lost in
existence for as long as God deems necessary to accomplish retribution for
their works per Rev 20:12.
_

Saul-to-Paul · Sep 26, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

Good verse! but the passage doesn't say the rich man saw Lazarus at his gate.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 26, 2022

Snacks said:
What’s ECT?

PennEd said:

You stabbed it right in the heart!

Ted01 · Sep 26, 2022

Snacks said:

Electro-Convulsive Therapy?

Randy4u2c · Oct 1, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

My take on it is that when we die, we all go to heaven. Once there, the ones that believed on the Lord are placed on one side of the gulf. The ones that denied the Lord are on the other side of the gulf, in torment for having rejected the Lord. During the Millennium reign of Christ, the truth will be taught to all that were mislead and deceived. At the end of the millennium will come the White Throne Judgment and those that reject the Lord will be rejected by him into eternal damnation.

"The rich man And Lazarus..."

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