Why can’t i speak in tongues as a Christian

[Bob-Carabbio]

You don't know my Denomination, and whether you know it or not, the context is said in verse 3


"But he that prophesieth" "speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."

As well as Reproof, correction, and warning. My Bible has more than ONE VERSE.

And "Prophesy" (as well as the other SPOKEN gifts) all functions the SAME, Old and New Testaments: God GIVES US the words to speak, and we speak them.

Simple as that.

 

[CS1]

How does the evidence you present disagree with Bob Carabbio's?

Let's say there is a bad of thieves who rob their victims along a desert highway. The leader says to a new young robber. "God job with that last robbery. You are a natural. And don't worry if you feel bad after your first kill. It gets much easier. Now, let me give you some advice about how to hold the knife so if they fight back, it ends quickly. And next time, don't scream in that high pitched voice if they attack back."

That contains edification, comfort, and exhortation. But are utterances like this 'prophesying' in the Biblical sense? Are they a 'prophecy.'

The one who prophesies (genuinely) speaks as He is moved by the Spirit. He speaks words from God. It is revelatory speech. The verse you refer to tells what this type of speech---prophesying--- does in the congregation.

How does the verse you quote offer any evidence that those who prophesy are not prophets? If someone thinks anyone who prophesies is a prophet, do you think he will see the verse you quoted as evidence to the contrary? A couple of times in the Old Testaments, it quotes the proverb, "Is Saul also among the prophets?" but it doesn't answer the question.

I Corinthians 14 is not exclusively about non-prophets prophesying. It says to 'let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge', and presumably they could prophesy when they spoke.

I lean toward the idea that one can prophesy without being a prophet. That there is a shift there in the passage in regard to who it is talking about between verse 29 and 31, since it says to let the prophets speak... but then uses 'ye' (second person plural) and says in verse 31 that you are all able to prophesy one by one.



How does this contradict what Bob Carabbio wrote, quoted above?

The Old Testament has some harsh-sounding prophecies in it, but in Romans 15, Paul writes about having hope through the comfort of the scriptures. Revelation has some shocking stuff, but it is a prophecy book.

1cor chapter 12 through 14 was provided in context to why Prophesying and a prophet are different from what we see in the old testament and how Paul said it was used in 1cor chapter 14.

 

[CS1]

You didn't cite it, so I had to do a search to find this definition. I found what you quoted to be a kind of poor definition, probably influenced a bit by Calvin's influence, since Calvin seemed to have a fuzzy understanding of what 'prophesying' meant in the church.

Be that as it may, this site calls the author of Thayers, from which the definition is taken 'the leading universalist theologian of the 19th century.'

A word study of how the term was used and what it meant in contexts, comparing to the equivalent in the Old Testament, would be more helpful than the following definition. I quote more of it to give context, from this page: https://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Strongs/40015007/G4395

The indenting did not come out right. The letters are subsets of the first 1., and the second 1. is under d. in the outline.

Saying prophesying is to 'teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others' under 'sudden impulse.' Is a fuzzy, sloppy, inaccurate definition of prophesying. If it is genuine prophesying, the key element is the moving of the Spirit, and the words being from God. Paul also recognizes teaching and exhortation as separate gifts from prophecy in Romans 12.

[/QUOTE]
That is your opinion. I do not care one way or another . As I said, context with 1cor chapter 14 as I provided. I am not trying to convenience you nor do I care if you agree

 

[CS1]

As well as Reproof, correction, and warning. My Bible has more than ONE VERSE.

And "Prophesy" (as well as the other SPOKEN gifts) all functions the SAME, Old and New Testaments: God GIVES US the words to speak, and we speak them.

Simple as that.

again if you don't see 1cor chapter 14 and what Paul said about Prophesying and tongues and interpretation, I am not here to provide for you anything other than what the text says. Nor do you have to agree I do not care one way or another.

 

[CS1]

You didn't cite it, so I had to do a search to find this definition. I found what you quoted to be a kind of poor definition, probably influenced a bit by Calvin's influence, since Calvin seemed to have a fuzzy understanding of what 'prophesying' meant in the church.

Be that as it may, this site calls the author of Thayers, from which the definition is taken 'the leading universalist theologian of the 19th century.'

A word study of how the term was used and what it meant in contexts, comparing to the equivalent in the Old Testament, would be more helpful than the following definition. I quote more of it to give context, from this page: https://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Strongs/40015007/G4395

The indenting did not come out right. The letters are subsets of the first 1., and the second 1. is under d. in the outline.

Saying prophesying is to 'teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others' under 'sudden impulse.' Is a fuzzy, sloppy, inaccurate definition of prophesying. If it is genuine prophesying, the key element is the moving of the Spirit, and the words being from God. Paul also recognizes teaching and exhortation as separate gifts from prophecy in Romans 12.

[/QUOTE]


LOL, I love how those like you try to stereotype people and say " probably influenced a bit by Calvin's influence,"

Then you interject, "The Leading universalist Theologian of the 19th century " Really?

I tell you what for the sake of you and I not being banned please put me on Ingore, and I will do the same to you how about dat ?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

View attachment 243687

off on a tangent, are we?

considering this Thread is about Speaking in Tongues but the last 5 pages have been about Prophecy and Prophesying i would say i'm on target as much as everyone else.

 

[CS1]

I am sure you will hear many things pertaining to this question. But the answer is simple. Don't seek to speak in tongues.

Until you know:

• Why speak in tongues?
• What is the gift used for?
• What does it mean when you do speak in tongues?
• Who is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit?
• Who do we ask to be empowered with the Holy Spirit?
• What is the empowering of the Holy Spirit for?

bring it back the the topic

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

something else that tickles me pink:

from the Queen who just met her Lord and Savior:

British Prime Minister Liz Truss delivered a careful and clear reading of Bible verse John 14:1-9 that was suggested by the Queen while preparing for her funeral.

As a close friend of the late evangelist Billy Graham, she, directly and indirectly, encouraged millions of viewers in annual Christmas messages and elsewhere to give Him their hearts.

She reportedly told an acquaintance: “I wish Jesus would come back in my lifetime.” Asked why she reportedly replied: “Because I would place my crown at his feet.”

On Monday, the coffin of Queen Elizabeth II was lowered here with the dean saying: “Go forth upon thy journey from this world, O Christian soul.”

 

[presidente]

In particular, I am only referring to your statement that prophecy in both testaments is the same.

The New Testament gift of prophecy is different from Old Testament prophecy. Paul says the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2 v 20). The equivalent of Old Testament prophecy is the apostolic testimony recorded in the New Testament. Old Testament prophets and New Testament apostles brought God’s authoritative word to his people.

In Ephesians 3, we read that the mystery that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs "which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: " (v. 5, NKJV).

I am not saying prophets will receive a new gospel. The faith has once been delivered to the saints. So this isn't a matter of new doctrinal revelation, but they can speak Spirit-moved speech.

In contrast, New Testament prophecy is to be weighed and tested (1 Thessalonians 5 v 19-22).
Old Testament Hebrews were also supposed to weigh prophecy. They were to observer whether a prophet's prophecy came to pass or if he said to worship other gods.

At its heart, prophecy seems to be bringing God’s word to bear in a particular situation. So it’s intimately tied to God’s word in the Bible, but also involves applying that word to specific situations.

Teachers do that. Exhorters and even evangelists may do that. Prophesying involves speaking as moved by the Spirit of God. In I Corinthians 14 it is revelatory speech-- as Paul says in verse 30-31 that if something be revealed to one that sitteth by let the first hold his peace for ye may all prophesy one by one...

Paul says we should “eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy” because “the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort” (1 Corinthians 14 v 1, 3).
And if we have studied the Old Testament and understand what 'prophesying' means, then we can understand that he who prophesies speaks to men for edification, exhortation and comfort.

That does not mean all edification, exhortation, and comfort. I posted a hypothetical example of a robber saying words to edify, exhort, and comfort another young robber after his first kills. (That's not the Biblical kind of exhortation exactly, but it had exhortation and comfort.) Not all edifying, etc. speech is prophesying. But prophesying in church performs these three functions.

Paul is saying what prophesying DOES, not what prophesying IS. He is saying this against the backdrop of over 1000 years of prophesying, the Old Testament, etc.

Sometimes that means predicting the future (as with Agabus in Acts 11 v 27-30). But more generally, prophecy brings the truth to bear on people’s hearts so they can be strengthened, encouraged and comforted. source

Whatever words the Spirit wants the individual or others to hear.

I have already pointed out that Paul states tongues are equal to the gift of prophecy IF they are interpreted,

I heard that a lot in the A/G and elsewhere, but he actually says greater is he prophesies than he who speaks in tongues except he interpret, that the church may be edified.

so that should be remembered by folks who believe if you are a prophet, then you have some kind of authority no one else has, because yes, that is sadly often how that gift is misused today...I do not see you saying this, but it is in wide use today

I don't see 'prophet' as a church government role. It is a ministry gift role. One could be a prophet and an elder of the church, or not. Moses had a role in government. Nathan was an advisor. Jeremiah was apparently not in the government. The idea that a church should have a committee of five-fold ministers is an idea I have heard from NAR circles. IMO, this idea has little to do with the Biblical function of that ministry gift/role.

A prophet in the OT was sent by God to speak for God, to people who were NOT filled with the Holy Spirit as per the outpouring in Acts and available to all believers today (not that all believers wish to partake for various 'reasons') and the spiritual gift of prophecy today is to strengthen, encourage and comfort as per the highlighted text above.

But it is still a case of God using one individual to speak to the congregation. But then He may use another, and another. It's not just everyone receiving everything exclusively directly from God. He uses other members of the body of Christ.

Are we really going to dither about what the gift is actually for when the Bible explicitly tells us what it is for? How could tongues, IF interpreted, be compared to prophecy if prophecy was only for the foretelling of some event? Those 2 gifts would not then be comparable or equal under certain circumstances at all!

It is important to know what prophesying is if we are given instructions on what to do with it in church in the scriptures. I do not recall Bob Carabbio arguing that prophecy was only for foretelling a future event. Paul does not say tongues and interpretation and prophecy are 'equal' or 'equivalent.' One might interpret Peter's use of Joel to imply that he considered speaking in tongues to be a subset of prophetic speech, I suppose.

Having said that, a future event can sometimes be told as per the related event when Agabus foretold of a famine that was going to happen. It happened. Note that this was not correction or God warning about impending punishment but of the same nature as the dreams that came to Joseph....not condemnation or judgement as per OT prophets. Also note that is not the description of the function of a prophet as per the description from scripture.

The issue here is not what prophesying is. Like in the Old Testament, prophesying involves speaking... or communicating... a message under the moving of the Holy Ghost. The difference between now and the Old Testament is the relationship of the people of God to God now, the covenant we are under, etc.

But even so, Revelation is a 'book of prophecy' and Jesus said of 'that woman Jezebel' "I will kill her children with death." Edification, exhortation, and comfort does not mean the same thing as happy-feel-good-words. If 'that woman Jezebel' and her followers were not real believers, then maybe we should consider the implications of that, but there are still some rebukes and potentially unpleasant words from the perspective of some of the readers in those chapters.

HOWEVER, the main thing I would like to point out is simply the fact that prophets in the OT were the exception and were not sent to comfort but rather to warn, to correct and speak for God to people who preferred not to listen.

I Corinthians 14 says prophecy edifies, comforts, and exhorts. Look up the Greek word translated 'exhort'. Paul wanted his readers to exhort certain individuals to work and support themselves. Telling someone to get a job and work might feel a bit uncomfortable to the individual listening, and it is also correction.

Moses was not the appointed go between the Israelites and God. God desired to speak directly to the Israelites but they did not want that; they wanted Moses to speak to them so God granted them their desire BUT it was not His best for them.

We may be a notch closer...maybe... to everyone hearing only from God directly... or not. If I Corinthians 13 is saying the gift of prophecy will pass away when Jesus returns, that's a possibility. But be that as it may, in this time, we can look back and see that Jesus said, "Behold I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes." He ascended and gave gifts to the church including prophets as per Ephesians 4. In I Corinthians 12, we see that the Spirit distributed gifts among members of the body of Christ, including prophecy.

So in this age, the church is the collective body of Christ, and the Spirit works through one member to edify another in one way, and through another member to edify another member in another way. that's different from just a few prophets here and there having the message for all the people of God and the regular Joe Hebrew not operating in the supernatural power of God or some of the other graces we experience. But it is not the same as everyone only hearing exclusively from God, or only dealing exclusively with God without going through the body of Christ. God can work as 'mediately' as He chooses.

This is getting long but this is actually a MAJOR MAJOR point for understanding AND protection against deception.

An overrealized.... I hate to use the word theology.... but idea of God not using intermediaries actually leads to wrong thinking and rejecting some Biblical doctrine.

 

[presidente]

1cor chapter 12 through 14 was provided in context to why Prophesying and a prophet are different from what we see in the old testament and how Paul said it was used in 1cor chapter 14.

I do not know what you are saying. Who provided the context? If you mean Paul, where did Paul present that context in the epistle? If you mean you provided the context... I don't get your point.

 

[presidente]

That is your opinion. I do not care one way or another . As I said, context with 1cor chapter 14 as I provided. I am not trying to convenience you nor do I care if you agree [/QUOTE]
Aren't you a pastor or teacher or something like that? Understanding what prophesying means is relevant to the church following certain teachings of scripture regarding what to do in church.

There are lots of 'impluses' that are not from the Spirit. Thayer's definition could be taken in a very unsuperntural way.

 

[CS1]

I do not know what you are saying. Who provided the context? If you mean Paul, where did Paul present that context in the epistle? If you mean, you provided the context... I don't get your point.

ahhhhhh I did Again 1cor chapters 12 through 14. As I said, I have already made the point and you do not accept, so were done I don't need to provide anything more It's ok. What I see in the word of God is not validated BY you or others. It's ok

 

[presidente]

LOL, I love how those like you try to stereotype people and say " probably influenced a bit by Calvin's influence,"

Then you interject, "The Leading universalist Theologian of the 19th century " Really?

I tell you what for the sake of you and I not being banned please put me on Ingore, and I will do the same to you how about dat ?[/QUOTE]
I think we probably agree on 90% of things. I don't get why you are upset. I don't use 'ignore'. People can talk smack about you and you don't know it, or say outlandish things to confuse others, and you are there and can't do anything. (not saying that's you.)

Calvin had a fuzzy idea of prophesying. He was influential in theology. Universalism isn't Calvinism, of course, but Calvinism and Reformed theology left its mark on commentaries outside of the Reformed movement, and church government, and various other things.

Do you really think that is what prophesying is? Do you go to a Pentecostal or Charismatic church? Do you ever hear anyone prophesy in the first person, speaking for God? Is prophesying just pulpit preaching or teaching a Sunday school lesson, based on your understanding?

 

[presidente]

ahhhhhh I did Again 1cor chapters 12 through 14. As I said, I have already made the point and you do not accept, so were done I don't need to provide anything more It's ok. What I see in the word of God is not validated BY you or others. It's ok

Paul does not write anything in I Corinthians to contrast Old Testament prophecy with New Testament prophecy, so I don't know what you mean. We've said lots of things, so I don't what you mean.

 

[CS1]

That is your opinion. I do not care one way or another . As I said, context with 1cor chapter 14 as I provided. I am not trying to convenience you nor do I care if you agree

Aren't you a pastor or teacher or something like that? Understanding what prophesying means is relevant to the church following certain teachings of scripture regarding what to do in church.

There are lots of 'impluses' that are not from the Spirit. Thayer's definition could be taken in a very unsuperntural way.[/QUOTE]


Again what I am is irrelevant to what I said about Prophesying and prophecy, which I gave very clearly, and is the understanding I have of 1cor chapter 12 through 14. This is not about me, nor should it be .

 

[Rosemaryx]

View attachment 243687

off on a tangent, are we?

@Magenta will love this picture

 

[CS1]

Paul does not write anything in I Corinthians to contrast Old Testament prophecy with New Testament prophecy, so I don't know what you mean. We've said lots of things, so I don't what you mean.

Ok if you say so.

I provided what Paul wrote in context to the gifts of The Holy Spirit which is the subject from 1cor 12 through 14 .

 

[presidente]

One would be hard pressed to find a thread on this forum that doesn't go off on a tangent that is longer than one page. I posted a thread on the word of knowledge, and someone posted off on a tangent within a few posts... something that seemed totally unrelated.

If moderators wanted to keep posts narrowly on topic, I'm okay with that, but that doesn't seem to be the culture of the forum, so I don't worry too much about it.

 

[CS1]

Amazing to read when someone feels the thread is not up to their liking or did not start and wants a Moderator to close it; LOL.so funny.

 

[Polar]

considering this Thread is about Speaking in Tongues but the last 5 pages have been about Prophecy and Prophesying i would say i'm on target as much as everyone else.

I never thought otherwise Considering I am posting unicorn memes, I could hardly be the one to tell everyone else they are off topic