Question about Gog

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J

Joey1964

Guest
#1
#1
Firstly, I would like to say that I ask this question with all sincerity and I hope that I do not insult any of my brothers or sisters in Christ. I grew up in what we call the Dutch Reform Church in South Africa. Our history in South Africa is very complexed and a lot of our ancestors fled their countries of origin because of religious persecution. We have a lot of French Huguenots, Dutch, British Settlers, etc. Growing up under apartheid South Africa we did not have much contact with the outside world. The Dutch Reform Church was the state religion and very conservative and very strict. With that background here is my question. Not once during all my years of going to church and learning did one of my Sunday School teachers or our "dominee" (preacher) every mentioned anything about Russia being Gog. The first time I ever heard that is when we opened up to American TV after our first democratic election in 1994. All of a sudden our TV's were flooded with all these weird interpretations of the Bible. Why did Martin Luther and Calvin not write about this during their time? It is almost like it is an American invention. I watched the recent news about the war in Ukraine. Russia cannot even defeat Ukraine, how can they be so powerful that they will attack Israel, and why would they do it? Where did this thought originate that Russia is Gog?
 
Aaron56

Aaron56

Well-known member
#2
Jul 12, 2021
2,749
1,573
113
#2
This article might answer some of your question: http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0259-94222017000300031

As someone who has matured in Christ while living in the United States I can testify that the conflation of Biblical ideas and politics has always occurred. It is a staple of this country's political narrative and has been active among its founders since before its inception. Many churches in the U.S. are American-centered, thinking themselves to be a standard for others and they export their ideas with the leverage afforded them from a world superpower. Such ideas have proven to be politically beneficial to those who seek to sway the voting population on domestic and foreign matters.

This country, for its size and influence on the world stage, has very few teachers in Christ.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#3
#3
Joey1964 said:
Firstly, I would like to say that I ask this question with all sincerity and I hope that I do not insult any of my brothers or sisters in Christ. I grew up in what we call the Dutch Reform Church in South Africa. Our history in South Africa is very complexed and a lot of our ancestors fled their countries of origin because of religious persecution. We have a lot of French Huguenots, Dutch, British Settlers, etc. Growing up under apartheid South Africa we did not have much contact with the outside world. The Dutch Reform Church was the state religion and very conservative and very strict. With that background here is my question. Not once during all my years of going to church and learning did one of my Sunday School teachers or our "dominee" (preacher) every mentioned anything about Russia being Gog. The first time I ever heard that is when we opened up to American TV after our first democratic election in 1994. All of a sudden our TV's were flooded with all these weird interpretations of the Bible. Why did Martin Luther and Calvin not write about this during their time? It is almost like it is an American invention. I watched the recent news about the war in Ukraine. Russia cannot even defeat Ukraine, how can they be so powerful that they will attack Israel, and why would they do it? Where did this thought originate that Russia is Gog?
Click to expand...
Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#4
Jul 3, 2015
59,812
29,191
113
#4
Martin Luther was born in 1483 and died in 1546.
Calvin was born in 1509 and died in 1564.

Europeans discovered the American continent in 1492.
The United States of America did not come into being until 1776.
 
J

Joey1964

Guest
#5
#5
Magenta said:
Martin Luther was born in 1483 and died in 1546.
Calvin was born in 1509 and died in 1564.

Europeans discovered the American continent in 1492.
The United States of America did not come into being until 1776.
Click to expand...
My question was why did they not write about Russia being Gog.
 
J

Joey1964

Guest
#6
#6
Aaron56 said:
This article might answer some of your question: http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0259-94222017000300031

As someone who has matured in Christ while living in the United States I can testify that the conflation of Biblical ideas and politics has always occurred. It is a staple of this country's political narrative and has been active among its founders since before its inception. Many churches in the U.S. are American-centered, thinking themselves to be a standard for others and they export their ideas with the leverage afforded them from a world superpower. Such ideas have proven to be politically beneficial to those who seek to sway the voting population on domestic and foreign matters.

This country, for its size and influence on the world stage, has very few teachers in Christ.
Click to expand...
I thank you for your honesty and the paper. It is crystal clear to me now. Very interesting read.
 
Beckie

Beckie

Well-known member
#8
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
#8
Joey1964 said:
My question was why did they not write about Russia being Gog.
Click to expand...
because they knew better.
Gog was a person
1Ch_5:4 The sons of Joel; Shemaiah his son, Gog his son, Shimei his son,
Eze_38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Eze_38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze_38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
Eze_38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze_38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze_39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze_39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
Rev_20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#9
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#9
Magenta said:
Europeans discovered the American continent in 1492.
Click to expand...
Not exactly, since Columbus discovered the island of San Salvador in 1492 (in the Bahamas) and concluded that he had arrived in the East Indies. Then he discovered Haiti and Cuba. But that is not the American continent. It was Ponce de Leon who arrived in Florida in 1513. Before him John Cabot landed at Cape Breton Island (Nova Scotia) in Canada in 1497. And long before these explorers the Vikings discovered Vinland in Canada.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#10
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#10
Joey1964 said:
My question was why did they not write about Russia being Gog.
Click to expand...
Why would any write that since hardly anyone was a Bible scholar at that time, let alone a student of Bible prophecy?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#12
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#12
Beckie said:
The church fathers were not Bible scholars?
Click to expand...
There was no reference to the church fathers in this discussion. The Reformers were not exactly focused on Bible prophecies.
 
J

Joey1964

Guest
#13
#13
Nehemiah6 said:
Why would any write that since hardly anyone was a Bible scholar at that time, let alone a student of Bible prophecy?
Click to expand...
The Bible is easy to read and understand. Almighty GOD wrote it for us, we do not need people to study prophecy to tell us what is in it.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#14
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#14
Joey1964 said:
The Bible is easy to read and understand.
Click to expand...
If that is the case you would not be asking any questions. The Reformers were not too occupied with Bible prophecy, and there was no "Russia" in the 15th century. There were two principalities in Rus -- Moscow and Tver. Sweden, Lithuania, Novgorod, the Mongols, and the Tatars were all fighting over the lands which presently constitute Russia. There was also civil war in Moscow.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#15
Apr 21, 2021
8,231
3,574
113
#15
In Calvin and Luther's time people were more interested in the finer points of theology. End-time prophetic events have only recently become an obsession. It coincides with the rise of the Christian industrial complex. That is, the parachurch and Christian media: books, films, music, etc.

I don't know where the idea that Gog is Russia came from, but I'm sure I first heard it from TV preachers.
 
Lucy-Pevensie

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
#17
Dec 20, 2017
9,385
5,724
113
#17
Joey1964 said:
Firstly, I would like to say that I ask this question with all sincerity and I hope that I do not insult any of my brothers or sisters in Christ. I grew up in what we call the Dutch Reform Church in South Africa. Our history in South Africa is very complexed and a lot of our ancestors fled their countries of origin because of religious persecution. We have a lot of French Huguenots, Dutch, British Settlers, etc. Growing up under apartheid South Africa we did not have much contact with the outside world. The Dutch Reform Church was the state religion and very conservative and very strict. With that background here is my question. Not once during all my years of going to church and learning did one of my Sunday School teachers or our "dominee" (preacher) every mentioned anything about Russia being Gog. The first time I ever heard that is when we opened up to American TV after our first democratic election in 1994. All of a sudden our TV's were flooded with all these weird interpretations of the Bible. Why did Martin Luther and Calvin not write about this during their time? It is almost like it is an American invention. I watched the recent news about the war in Ukraine. Russia cannot even defeat Ukraine, how can they be so powerful that they will attack Israel, and why would they do it? Where did this thought originate that Russia is Gog?
Click to expand...

Gog isn't a Russian leader or Russia.
The Russia theory isn't backed by scripture or historical record. It does indeed seem to to be a modern idea, popularised
on TV and in books by a very small group of prophecy teachers. See (H. Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth 1970).
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#18
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
5,630
113
#18
Joey1964 said:
My question was why did they not write about Russia being Gog.
Click to expand...
the world map has changed drastically from ancient times due to kingdoms expanding and conquering and taking territory its a lot different from the division of the nations God made early in the earth there was no Russia then.

Many nations that exist today , most hadn’t even come to be yet when those things are written so the prophets are speaking in figures ancient people understood , regarding future world events so that the hearers even now can have occurrences to watch for as Gods words are fulfilled through time

for instance Babylon doesn’t exist now but several nations Iran , iraq and some other area possibly into Russia , ( no one really knows for sure )used to make up babylons territory .

But iraq and Iran weren’t yet nations then they were in a way “ within Babylon like children who would come from it “

The boundaries and nations were very different then and have changed over time is my point
 
D

Dirtman

Well-known member
#19
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
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#19
That wasnt an idea of the time

Gog being Russia is a modern idea.
 
D

Dirtman

Well-known member
#20
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
#20
Gog is identifies as the king of Magog in Genesis Magog is a son of Japheth. It also says these settled in coastal lands. Russia dont qualify
 
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