Total self-sacrifice. How many of us can be called disciples? It is very difficult as we live such selfish lives, all about self-promotion in the modern world.
Take up your cross - what does Jesus mean🤔
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the doctrine of the cross applied later to believers
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were ( past tense ) the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”( present tense )
Romans 6:3-18 KJV
amen I like the detail added here in luke
“And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”
Luke 9:23 KJV
it’s a daily decision we make each day we could deny him and follow ourselves he’s calling us to deny ourselves and follow him daily
Sure male it about works of righteousness, not faith.
Not the full understanding that this flesh will die and it will die because it is corrupted by sin. That though we are forgiven we will suffer the pain of death and only Christ that is Jesus will resurrect it because he has forgiven us and we therefore will not suffer tje second death.
Not the full understanding that this flesh will die and it will die because it is corrupted by sin. That though we are forgiven we will suffer the pain of death and only Christ that is Jesus will resurrect it because he has forgiven us and we therefore will not suffer tje second death.
I believe we do not need to forsake discipleship to understand that it is not about works. We should strive to be and live as Christ did, if we are followers...we follow surely.
Oh, I left that verse out.
I was referencing Matthew 10:38 where He says “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me."
I'm not sold on the "even if it leads to your death" part: following Christ always leads to our death. So I do not think it would be conditional.
I think it has to do with the mystery of becoming a "living sacrifice": we have a will of our own and if we give u the will the Father will live through us. AKA: we give up our own will (lives) so that the life of Christ may be our life.
“I'm not sold on the "even if it leads to your death" part: following Christ always leads to our death.”
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
no brother following Christ always leads to Life but what I was saying is
“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Matthew 24:9-13 KJV
even if following Jesus means that we’re led there to that place we still have to follow him. In many cases a believer never is killed because of their faith most aren’t but many since Christ said that have been even today in other countries people are killed because they won’t reject Christ and instead they believe and preach Christ in places that reject it like Islamic countries even if we re going to be persecuted like Jesus was on his way to the cross he was beaten mocked and ridiculed insulted blamed accused of blasphemy he still Carrie’s the cross knowing it was leading to his excruciating death
he’s simply calling a disciple to do what disciples do follow thier tescher to the end even if it means suffering in this life
but here’s the death I’m more talking about the sinner inside that works by lust and sins is called to death we do t have to die
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
Galatians 5:24
Each day we can make a decision to deny our own lusts and wants and follow after Jesus will for us . If we choose Jesus the sinful parts in us are being starved and out to death through the knowledge of the cross of Christ in baptism and how it is applied to us who believe
but yeah I believe Jesus calls us to follow after his ways in both good times and in the toughest times we face in life whether it’s a terrible event like the slaughter of the first church by Rome when many were burned alive , crucified and set on fire thrown to beasts in the arena in time for Nero’s entertainment ect
persecution and martyrdom still exists in the world for followers of Jesus but at any time they can come to conclude “ it’s not worth it “ instead we need to believe the gospel that says it’s more than worth any trial or suffering we could possibly endure
it’s a picture of the disciple chi posing to followmthier lord even if it means suffering and death total commitment “ love God with your whole heart mind body and soul “
We can’t be a half hearted believer is the idea it’s not promised to be easy in this world
disciples are followers of him so he’s saying if we stop following it’s Akin to forsaking discipleship
disciples make mistakes for sure that’s why they aren’t the teacher but those learning from him , often Christian’s are making the argument “ you don’t need to think you need to follow Jesus and his ways that’s not for you “
that is teaching people that discipleship isn’t for Christian’s but disciples are what Christian’s are the y just started calling Jesus disciples , Christian’s
“….. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
Acts 11:26 KJV
I know it’s ridiculous to make the argument “ you don’t need to be a disciple and follow after Jesus ways on the gospel “ but so many think that when you start talking with them Jesus and the apostles all make the point that we need to follow Jesus which is what makes a disciple
we stumble and fall we may fail terribly at times while we’re learning and growing but we never conclude we’re not disciples or don’t need to follow
Ok...
Take up your cross is one directive
And follow me is another directive. I never addressed following because the question is "what is take up your cross".
I never said not to follow.
I said what our cross is.
Now granted they arent mutually exclusive, ya cant really do one without the other.
Taking up your cross is knowing the desperate condition you are in and putting up a fight anyway trusting Jesus that though we die ( and we do die, and it is because our corrupted flesh indeed kills us) He will resurrect us.
Ok...
“Take up your cross is one directive
And follow me is another directive.”
no Jesus had just told them he was going to be put to death …..he’s saying pick up your cross and follow me not telling then two different things he told Ben about how he was going to be led into Jerusalem and excecuted
you understand that’s romes method of excecutuon at that time ? Crucifixion is a Roman design of torture and death Jesus has just told them out his death do you see what I’m saying it’s a concept he’s getting to cross to them not a literal thing they didn’t all make crosses and then follow his actually footprints
it’s entirely about discipleship
Notice it doesn't say He will come with Him. We know Jesus will come in His glory with the holy angels. Which clearly teaches Jesus is the Father.
2 Corinthians 6:17,18
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
“Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.”
That’s what I meant about being a living sacrifice. The promise of dying to self is life in the Spirit.
You have to be willing to be executed by wicked unbelievers if that's what they threaten you with for following Jesus Christ.
You have to be willing to let them take away all your material possessions as punishment for following Christ, and just keep following Him anyway.
You have to be willing to boldly preach Jesus Christ, repentance of sins, coming judgment, the resurrection, even if they mock you, and call you a hater and a loser. Even if you are fired from your job, even if you are arrested and sued for hate crimes.
Otherwise you are not a real follower of Jesus Christ. He won't own you in that day. That is what he was trying to tell the huge crowds around him that were faking like they were all in but He knew they were not.
You have to be willing to let them take away all your material possessions as punishment for following Christ, and just keep following Him anyway.
You have to be willing to boldly preach Jesus Christ, repentance of sins, coming judgment, the resurrection, even if they mock you, and call you a hater and a loser. Even if you are fired from your job, even if you are arrested and sued for hate crimes.
Otherwise you are not a real follower of Jesus Christ. He won't own you in that day. That is what he was trying to tell the huge crowds around him that were faking like they were all in but He knew they were not.
yes brother I read that in your comment it’s why I went here this is how we get there as we come to let this become our belief of what happened it’s giving us faith to say and truly believe and realize “ I’m not a sinner anymore I don’t have to serve sin I’ve been made free through the doctrine surrounding the cross this is the power to get us going in that direction of truly dying to self our foundation to start believing that truly
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”
Romans 6:3-17
What I mean is there is doctrine that bring the power to truly deny our old self thy sinner who believes “ we all sin all the time no one can Change “ to change that doubt into faith that says “ we died with Christ to sin it no longer has power over us that we should obey the lust nd deceptions it speaks we’ve died and are now new creatures in the resurrection of Christ we can overcome we can do all things in him “
It’s really hard r a sinner to simply not sin, but if we start hearing the power in the gospel through the death and resurrection of Christ d start letting ourselves believe it truly applies to us this is the “ how “ of overcoming by faith because this faith has the power to make us forget what is behind d put on the new That is ahead
in my belief to “ deny ourself and pick up the cross and follow the lord “ is spoken about through the whole New Testament in many various ways
every time we read about repenting from our sin , from abstaining from lusts of the flesh , ect it’s talking about denying ourself nd to accept the doctrines of the cross we find like what pal is talking about there is how we pick up our cross and eventually crucify the flesh
I’m speaking on a plain of faith and not literally or earthly life and death , I hope that makes sense
We sort of need to start believing I was lost but now I’m found , I once wallowed with swine , now I sit at my fathers table , I once was blind now I see , I once was a slave to sin but now I’m free of it’s bondage , I was before and without Christ but now I am because of Christ
I’m no longer the old man who died with Jesus , but the new man who lives in him
I’m no longer the old man who died with Jesus , but the new man who lives in him
To me it seems He meant we must surrender our will to the Father's. That's what Jesus did; He obeyed the Father even to death on a cross. He's our example.