Trinity or Unity

wattie · Sep 15, 2022

(John 4:23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(John 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
(John 4:25) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
(John 4:26) Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

A glimpse into the trinity here

awelight · Sep 15, 2022

persistent said:

The doctrine of the Trinity - in it's simplest form is the belief of Father, Son and Holy Spirit - yet, it is a bit more complexed.

The Trinitarian view is this. God is of ONE essential essence but in three distinct persons. This would be expressed mathematically as: 1x1x1=1 or put another way - The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God - since each Person, is of one essence, they are one God. There are many mysteries in the Bible and surly, the Trinity is one. So too, the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. God, the Son, coming to earth in the flesh. The Divine nature and human nature residing within the same body.

While the word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible, there are several good examples of this union in Scripture. Here are a few:

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Note the use of the plural pronouns "us" and "our". This expression proves, that we have three Persons, taking counsel with one another. Some say God expresses Himself as three persons but God is not three persons. If this was true, then Gen. 1:26 - has God talking to Himself - since there are no other persons to talk too.

While there are three distinct Persons, within the Godhead - this does not mean... three differing thoughts or views. All three are of one mind and have the same thoughts. Remember... God is Eternal and as such, has never had a thought, nor will have a thought, that He has not already thought. God is unchanging. All three Persons of the Godhead, are of the same mind, on all things. The Father planned every aspect of Creation and Redemption and the Son and the Holy Spirit agreed. The Son subjected Himself to His Father and the Holy Spirit subjected Himself to both - Yet, all three are equal as God. (John 10:30; 17:11) Complicated indeed but not impossible to comprehend.

Luke 3:21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son: in thee I am well pleased.

In verse 22 - we see all three Persons involved in the baptism of Jesus. 1.) The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, 2.) The Son was in Jesus, for He is the God-Man, 3.) The Father spoke from heaven about His Son.

If God was, as the Unitarians believe, One God - manifesting Himself as three persons - this verse, singlehandedly, would make that idea impossible. If we followed the Unitarian view, we would have to change the last part of verse 22, to read: ".. Thou art Myself: In Myself I am well pleased.".

I hope that in some small way, this might have helped.

AndrewMorgan · Sep 15, 2022

Bob-Carabbio said:

That brings back some memories!
I met them in Oxford, England. I was 26 and knew nothing of Christianity and the Bible. I think in America, Christianity is more ingrained in Society than in Britain.
One thing I couldn't understand was they wanted me to pay for their course. That didn't seem right.

awelight · Sep 15, 2022

AndrewMorgan said:

This may seem a strangely basic issue to many, as they have this matter entrenched in their mind, but my background makes me unsure of things. I'll briefly elaborate, although at the moment, I'm not thinking as clearly as I otherwise would.
I was not born into a Christian (or any other religious) home and in my teens was a vehement atheist. I was later more questioning and when I was 26, I met people from a religious group called "The Way" (I don't know how many readers have heard of them). They were unitarians (with a small "u" - not the main Unitarian church). At that time, I knew almost nothing about the Bible and precious little about science.
They invited me to attend their meetings, which after a bit I did. I bought some of their literature.
After reading something of theirs, I was stricken with terror. It was about the unforgivable sin. They rendered the matter as follows - paraphrasing:- "He who is born of God has eternal life and the love of God. He who is born of the Devil has eternal death and the hate of the Devil. You cannot repent of seed - it is permanent".
I thought about what I may have done in the past and my former vehemently ungodly attitude.
During the next few months, I frantically interacted with many (nominally) Christian people and denominations, trying to glean knowledge. On the whole to a lesser extent, this attempt at learning and uncertainty has been with me ever since - I'm now 63.
I've "seen" things from both Trinitarian and Unitarian perspectives. I'd say, in the NT, there is, at least on prima facie considerstion, some material that supports either view.
I'd be interested in reading others' (preferably Bible-based) reasoning on this matter.

I was answering another but you might find Post #122 interesting as well.

persistent · Sep 15, 2022

awelight said:

The doctrine of the Trinity - in it's simplest form is the belief of Father, Son and Holy Spirit - yet, it is a bit more complexed.

The Trinitarian view is this. God is of ONE essential essence but in three distinct persons. This would be expressed mathematically as: 1x1x1=1 or put another way - The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God - since each Person, is of one essence, they are one God. There are many mysteries in the Bible and surly, the Trinity is one. So too, the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. God, the Son, coming to earth in the flesh. The Divine nature and human nature residing within the same body.

While the word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible, there are several good examples of this union in Scripture. Here are a few:

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Note the use of the plural pronouns "us" and "our". This expression proves, that we have three Persons, taking counsel with one another. Some say God expresses Himself as three persons but God is not three persons. If this was true, then Gen. 1:26 - has God talking to Himself - since there are no other persons to talk too.

While there are three distinct Persons, within the Godhead - this does not mean... three differing thoughts or views. All three are of one mind and have the same thoughts. Remember... God is Eternal and as such, has never had a thought, nor will have a thought, that He has not already thought. God is unchanging. All three Persons of the Godhead, are of the same mind, on all things. The Father planned every aspect of Creation and Redemption and the Son and the Holy Spirit agreed. The Son subjected Himself to His Father and the Holy Spirit subjected Himself to both - Yet, all three are equal as God. (John 10:30; 17:11) Complicated indeed but not impossible to comprehend.

Luke 3:21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son: in thee I am well pleased.

In verse 22 - we see all three Persons involved in the baptism of Jesus. 1.) The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, 2.) The Son was in Jesus, for He is the God-Man, 3.) The Father spoke from heaven about His Son.

If God was, as the Unitarians believe, One God - manifesting Himself as three persons - this verse, singlehandedly, would make that idea impossible. If we followed the Unitarian view, we would have to change the last part of verse 22, to read: ".. Thou art Myself: In Myself I am well pleased.".

I hope that in some small way, this might have helped.

Yes it is helpful and thanks for taking time to post. Since I have only started seriously studying the Bible about 2 years ago and before that only read some of the Bible (KJV) between the years 1971 and 1975 I find that it is necessary to pray about these matters, which I only started praying about early 2021.

awelight · Sep 15, 2022

persistent said:

That is good to hear. Diligent study of the Scriptures and remaining prayerful are the true ways to understanding. The KJV Bible is a good solid translation. Not a perfect translation but a very, very good one.

There are many opinions of men but if you are indeed one who has been saved by God's Grace - the Holy Spirit will lead you into Truth.

I would offer the following, as a good guide in your study. Remember always - that God is totally Sovereign over His Creation. He after all is God and we are mere creatures. Any interpretation by us, which seems to elevate man and take away from God's Sovereign Reign - should be rejected. The Bible says this about fallen mankind::

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

And says this about God:

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If I can be of any further help on the Trinity (or anything else), let me know.

persistent · Sep 15, 2022

awelight said:

That is good to hear. Diligent study of the Scriptures and remaining prayerful are the true ways to understanding. The KJV Bible is a good solid translation. Not a perfect translation but a very, very good one.

There are many opinions of men but if you are indeed one who has been saved by God's Grace - the Holy Spirit will lead you into Truth.

I would offer the following, as a good guide in your study. Remember always - that God is totally Sovereign over His Creation. He after all is God and we are mere creatures. Any interpretation by us, which seems to elevate man and take away from God's Sovereign Reign - should be rejected. The Bible says this about fallen mankind::

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

And says this about God:

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If I can be of any further help on the Trinity (or anything else), let me know.

Thank You very helpful.

Saul-to-Paul · Sep 15, 2022

awelight said:

The doctrine of the Trinity - in it's simplest form is the belief of Father, Son and Holy Spirit - yet, it is a bit more complexed.

The Trinitarian view is this. God is of ONE essential essence but in three distinct persons. This would be expressed mathematically as: 1x1x1=1 or put another way - The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God - since each Person, is of one essence, they are one God. There are many mysteries in the Bible and surly, the Trinity is one. So too, the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. God, the Son, coming to earth in the flesh. The Divine nature and human nature residing within the same body.

While the word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible, there are several good examples of this union in Scripture. Here are a few:

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Note the use of the plural pronouns "us" and "our". This expression proves, that we have three Persons, taking counsel with one another. Some say God expresses Himself as three persons but God is not three persons. If this was true, then Gen. 1:26 - has God talking to Himself - since there are no other persons to talk too.

While there are three distinct Persons, within the Godhead - this does not mean... three differing thoughts or views. All three are of one mind and have the same thoughts. Remember... God is Eternal and as such, has never had a thought, nor will have a thought, that He has not already thought. God is unchanging. All three Persons of the Godhead, are of the same mind, on all things. The Father planned every aspect of Creation and Redemption and the Son and the Holy Spirit agreed. The Son subjected Himself to His Father and the Holy Spirit subjected Himself to both - Yet, all three are equal as God. (John 10:30; 17:11) Complicated indeed but not impossible to comprehend.

Luke 3:21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son: in thee I am well pleased.

In verse 22 - we see all three Persons involved in the baptism of Jesus. 1.) The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, 2.) The Son was in Jesus, for He is the God-Man, 3.) The Father spoke from heaven about His Son.

If God was, as the Unitarians believe, One God - manifesting Himself as three persons - this verse, singlehandedly, would make that idea impossible. If we followed the Unitarian view, we would have to change the last part of verse 22, to read: ".. Thou art Myself: In Myself I am well pleased.".

I hope that in some small way, this might have helped.

Impossible to have 3 distinct persons with one mind.

Leviticus 24:12
And they put him in ward, that the mind of the Lord might be shewed them.

Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

If those two are not the same person you have a 2 minded god.

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 15, 2022

wattie said:

as a person who believes God is Triune, but after knowing John 14:10 and others, i don't see that this separates one of Spirit and one of flesh into 2 beings. just saying.

Saul-to-Paul · Sep 15, 2022

Saul-to-Paul said:

Ezekel 11:5

And the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the Lord; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

One Being, beautiful.

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 15, 2022

awelight said:

the Hebrews make a decent argument against this. look at the following Verse.

if Verse 26 is about the trinity, and not the Counsel, why does Verse 27 say what God did in SINGULAR FORM?

27 God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them.

it should read God created humankind in THEIR Image, not HIS and HE [singular] if Verse 26 is about the Godhead.

Bob-Carabbio · Sep 15, 2022

persistent said:

There's the FACT of "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit", the "scientific specifications" of which NOBODY REALLY UNDERSTANDS - because God, in His entirety is well beyond our capability to understand. However, Father God, and the Holy Spirit are clearly present all through the Old Testament, and in the NEW Testament we're introduced to "The Word" who was WITH God, and who WAS God, and who went on to "Become Flesh" in the person of "The Son" - Jesus.

And then there's the "DOCTRINE(s)" of the "Trinity" which ATTEMPT UNSUCCESSFULLY to define "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" by assigning the term "Persons" to them, assigning functional latitude to them, and even RANKING them as "first", "second", and "third".

Personally, since there will come a time when I WILL KNOW - even as I am known, I'm totally comfortable with ignoring "Trinitarian Doctrines", since they're nothing but "Theology", and largely meaningless in practical terms, and simply saying that in an undefined fashion, there's God the FATHER, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and leaving it at that - till later when all questions will be answered.

Simple as that.

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 15, 2022

Bob-Carabbio said:

i love this!

i have begun to ask myself many questions from how i was led to believe and now how i am able to be led by God.

one thing that now interests me is that Jesus told His Disciples the Father lives inside Him doing all the talking and works. this only could happen because what we read in Philippians 2:7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

that leads then to why did God in Spirit need a vessel to reflect Himself like a mirror in flesh, since He did all the talking and works and clearly was on His throne in Heaven while also living inside the body of Jesus. this is what John tells us in Chapter 14.

obviously, to fulfill Prophecy, to fulfill the LAW for the New Covenant, to be Crucified unto Death and Resurrected.

but why did the Father not just let Jesus be Himself if they are not each other?

awelight · Sep 15, 2022

Saul-to-Paul said:

My explanation was sufficient, to get one to thinking. If you cannot see this, then saying more would be pointless.

wattie · Sep 15, 2022

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Yea i see it as one being God.. expressing Himself in three expressions.

I know it isn't the best analogy.. because it makes Jesus an 'expression' but i don't like the word ' persons ' because there is no separate beings like 3 gods

Bob-Carabbio · Sep 15, 2022

The_Watchers_2017 said:

What makes you think that he didn't in a practical sense?? Jesus was a human MAN with a HUMAN NATURE, and was TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT as we are.

Jesus was "God in a man suit" pretending to be HUMAN - He was a human man. And he DIDN'T engage in ministry UNTIL He was joined by the Holy Spirit after his baptism by John. So essentially he walked pretty much like WE walk through life. HE derived His POWER as it was given to Him as needed. The Centurion nailed it about how Jesus functioned - UNDER authority (God's), and thereby HAVING Authority.

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 15, 2022

Bob-Carabbio said:

i know all of what you're saying, but still we have Jesus as you have explained and then we have what John tells us in chapter 14 about the Father living inside Jesus doing the Father's works and such.

if the Father is being Omnipresent on His Throne and also inside Jesus doing His Own Works, how does this show us they are not the same Being? it proves how Jesus is the Expressed Image to the Invisible God, the Father. but if the Father can be in multiple places at one time, why does it mean we are looking at 2 Separate Persons then? the more i look at this and examine it, i am no longer convinced. that bothers me. are my eyes being opened to something i could not see before?

The_Watchers_2017 · Sep 15, 2022

wattie said:

also, in the original Greek, they use ESSENCE. it was not until 1,100 years later they used Person. so it's not wrong to not want to use Person because Person is not the True Translation.

riverhooks · Sep 15, 2022

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Huh ?

HealthAndHappiness · Sep 15, 2022

Andrew,

I have met friendly folks that were members of The Way International. We have had long discussions. I appreciate that you are interested in what the Bible says about the Trinity. To know the Trinity is to know God. Rather than write a book on this, I will post videos as long as you are interested. This is a foundational truth about the Lord as He has always made Himself known and desires us to know Him better.
Link to teaching.

https://www.kjv1611only.com/video/02preaching/Sermons_Pastor_Anderson/The_Trinity.mp4

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