Trinity or Unity

[Runningman]

Trinity isn’t complex.

It’s just that God has a Spirit within His body the same way people have a spirit within their body. That’s the Father and Holy Spirit. The Son is God incarnated in human form.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one person who is God, but these labels just describe different aspects of Himself. This is all Biblical.

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

This may seem a strangely basic issue to many, as they have this matter entrenched in their mind, but my background makes me unsure of things. I'll briefly elaborate, although at the moment, I'm not thinking as clearly as I otherwise would.
I was not born into a Christian (or any other religious) home and in my teens was a vehement atheist. I was later more questioning and when I was 26, I met people from a religious group called "The Way" (I don't know how many readers have heard of them). They were unitarians (with a small "u" - not the main Unitarian church). At that time, I knew almost nothing about the Bible and precious little about science.
They invited me to attend their meetings, which after a bit I did. I bought some of their literature.
After reading something of theirs, I was stricken with terror. It was about the unforgivable sin. They rendered the matter as follows - paraphrasing:- "He who is born of God has eternal life and the love of God. He who is born of the Devil has eternal death and the hate of the Devil. You cannot repent of seed - it is permanent".
I thought about what I may have done in the past and my former vehemently ungodly attitude.
During the next few months, I frantically interacted with many (nominally) Christian people and denominations, trying to glean knowledge. On the whole to a lesser extent, this attempt at learning and uncertainty has been with me ever since - I'm now 63.
I've "seen" things from both Trinitarian and Unitarian perspectives. I'd say, in the NT, there is, at least on prima facie considerstion, some material that supports either view.
I'd be interested in reading others' (preferably Bible-based) reasoning on this matter.

My friend, the Godhead is neither "trinitarian" or "unitarian". It is written, hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Christians know that there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Because the scriptures testify that to them there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and they in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and they by him. And in Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham, dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. As it is written, God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself. This is why the faithful witness said, I and my Father are one. And why Thomas said concerning him: My Lord and my God. Amen.

 

[riverhooks]

My friend, the Godhead is neither "trinitarian" or "unitarian". It is written, hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Christians know that there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Because the scriptures testify that to them there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and they in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and they by him. And in Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham, dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. As it is written, God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself. This is why the faithful witness said, I and my Father are one. And why Thomas said concerning him: My Lord and my God. Amen.

I agree with this explaination. I have found when you try to separate the GodHead into individuals there is error. Jesus is the Son of the Father. Jesus is the Everlasting Father in Isaiah. The brightness of the Fathers Glory in Hebrews 1. Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up said , the Lord Jesus. Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father who raised Him from the dead. Romans 8 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, etc. You do not get one without the other. God is One . God is God. I think of God as Yep that's Him. Whether Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit , is called the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ. Same God. We will understand it better by and by but one thing is important to get right now. "The work of God is to believe on Him whom God has sent". Namely Jesus. He that has the Son has life and He that has not the Son of God has not life. His blood. faith in His blood . faith in Jesus. The one true and living God. King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

 

[DavidTree]

This may seem a strangely basic issue to many, as they have this matter entrenched in their mind, but my background makes me unsure of things. I'll briefly elaborate, although at the moment, I'm not thinking as clearly as I otherwise would.
I was not born into a Christian (or any other religious) home and in my teens was a vehement atheist. I was later more questioning and when I was 26, I met people from a religious group called "The Way" (I don't know how many readers have heard of them). They were unitarians (with a small "u" - not the main Unitarian church). At that time, I knew almost nothing about the Bible and precious little about science.
They invited me to attend their meetings, which after a bit I did. I bought some of their literature.
After reading something of theirs, I was stricken with terror. It was about the unforgivable sin. They rendered the matter as follows - paraphrasing:- "He who is born of God has eternal life and the love of God. He who is born of the Devil has eternal death and the hate of the Devil. You cannot repent of seed - it is permanent".
I thought about what I may have done in the past and my former vehemently ungodly attitude.
During the next few months, I frantically interacted with many (nominally) Christian people and denominations, trying to glean knowledge. On the whole to a lesser extent, this attempt at learning and uncertainty has been with me ever since - I'm now 63.
I've "seen" things from both Trinitarian and Unitarian perspectives. I'd say, in the NT, there is, at least on prima facie considerstion, some material that supports either view.
I'd be interested in reading others' (preferably Bible-based) reasoning on this matter.

THEY are BOTH = Trinity & Unity

 

[DavidTree]

Just a fair warning, Christian Chat holds that any doctrine other that Trinitarianism is heresy and those promoting heresy risk being removed. I will allow a little leeway for the purposes of this thread.

Is not ELOHIM(God) both Trinity and Unity = according to the Scriptures.

Have THEY ever been divided???

PS - i am not a Unitarian, neither do i know their doctrines.

 

[DavidTree]

i am trying to see why Jesus would use Name, not Name((s)).

and then in Acts Peter changes it.

maybe Peter is thinking like i am thinking. but i would like to know this NAME that represents all Three!

ELOHIM is the Title that represents ALL 3

And ELOHIM said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Moreover ELOHIM said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Lord ELOHIM of your fathers,
the Elohenu of Abraham,
the Elohenu of Isaac,
the Elohenu of Jacob,
has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

Exodus ch3

 

[DavidTree]

Matthew 28:19 has always confused me. in the Name[Singular]... why not in the Name(s) which is a clear reference to more than one?

then Acts 2:38 is also Name [Singular].

every translation uses the Singular format for Name.

so if it's written in singular Format, what is the NAME of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit?

God?


4th Century Greek Text:
19 Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

16th Century TR Text:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Modern Day Text:
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Ruach ha-Kodesh.


really odd using a Singular Name format to represent Multiple Members.

The singular sentence structure of Multiple Persons who are ELOHIM = Plural = Gods

Since THEY are ONE (Echad) the necessity is to speak in the singular while at the same time denoting the clear distinction of THREE who comprise FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT

Peace

 

[DavidTree]

Just a fair warning, Christian Chat holds that any doctrine other that Trinitarianism is heresy and those promoting heresy risk being removed. I will allow a little leeway for the purposes of this thread.

The Unitarians surrounded the Trinitarain and said:
"All the 'Faiths' of the world are united and we have you surrounded, now give up and capitulate."

to which the Trinitarian said:

“But will ELOHIM indeed dwell with men on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain US."

at this juncture the Unitarians looked up at the stars and realized they were the ones who were surrounded...................

 

[CS1]

The eternal Godhead and the concept of the Trinity are well seen in the Word of God. The error happens when one tries to fully understand The Nature of God. FYI You and I are incapable of doing so because human understanding is incapable of knowing ALL that God is. God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit = the One true God. How that three can be one is the Mystery of the Eternal Godhead. Only pride leads to thinking one can know all of God outside what HE said you can know.

Three ways of Revelation of GOD :

1. General = By the things He created Roman chapter 1
2. Speacal= By HIS word
3. Realtionship= through salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.


That's it; we have enough for righteous living and appropriate worship.

 

[Magenta]

One TRIUNE God.

There is no 3 separate beings here.
But expressions/essences of the one God.

The Bible has Jesus being around before He was in human formation as one with the Father as the Word.

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, which was there at the same time with the Father and the Word.

How do you know... ? Look at Genesis 1 and John 1.

When Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I' does that mean He is inferior?

No.. in the passage when He says this He then ascends afterwards to be equal with the Father as one.

It was only a greater position.. which is no longer the case.

John 1:1

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

ELOHIM is the Title that represents ALL 3

And ELOHIM said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Moreover ELOHIM said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Lord ELOHIM of your fathers,
the Elohenu of Abraham,
the Elohenu of Isaac,
the Elohenu of Jacob,
has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

Exodus ch3

the Torah is written using the form of Elohim (אלהים) .

and it's used this way on 5 occasions in Verse 6 of the 3rd Chapter of Shemot.

He said, "I am the Elohim of your father, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward Elohim.


now maybe the English Language has translated this to be Elohenu.
but the Hebrew Language specifies Elohim being used in this particular Verse.

i tend to use the Torah/Tanakh, not the Septuagint [Greek Translation], when it comes to the Old Testament knowing the original Language was the Hebrew.
for one simple reason, the Septuagint is Hellenized.

Definition of Hellenism

1 : grecism sense 1. 2 : devotion to or imitation of ancient Greek thought, customs, or styles. 3 : Greek civilization especially as modified in the Hellenistic period by influences from southwestern Asia.


i don't want a Version created by how the Greeks wanted the Hebrew to mean according to their own views.
i want what God Inspired directly through the Hebrew Writers themselves.
I want the absolute TRUTH!
i believe the Hebrew Torah/Tanakh provides that TRUTH when dealing with the entire Old Testament..

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The singular sentence structure of Multiple Persons who are ELOHIM = Plural = Gods

Since THEY are ONE (Echad) the necessity is to speak in the singular while at the same time denoting the clear distinction of THREE who comprise FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT

Peace

i would never claim anything differently. i am just pointing out the use of a singular Name being used.

 

[DavidTree]

the Torah is written using the form of Elohim (אלהים) .

and it's used this way on 5 occasions in Verse 6 of the 3rd Chapter of Shemot.

He said, "I am the Elohim of your father, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward Elohim.


now maybe the English Language has translated this to be Elohenu.
but the Hebrew Language specifies Elohim being used in this particular Verse.

i tend to use the Torah/Tanakh, not the Septuagint [Greek Translation], when it comes to the Old Testament knowing the original Language was the Hebrew.
for one simple reason, the Septuagint is Hellenized.

Definition of Hellenism

1 : grecism sense 1. 2 : devotion to or imitation of ancient Greek thought, customs, or styles. 3 : Greek civilization especially as modified in the Hellenistic period by influences from southwestern Asia.


i don't want a Version created by how the Greeks wanted the Hebrew to mean according to their own views.
i want what God Inspired directly through the Hebrew Writers themselves.
I want the absolute TRUTH!
i believe the Hebrew Torah/Tanakh provides that TRUTH when dealing with the entire Old Testament..

Thank you for your post.

Both Elohim and Elohenu are plural = Gods.

It does not matter to me personally as i know who Elohim WAS, IS and IS to come.
What does matter to Elohim and myself is Genesis and Exodus ch3 specifically which is the Foundation of all Truth for all who desire to know Truth.

Thus the Apostle John wrote: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God........."

Adonai Yeshua HaMoshiach says this of Himself: "before Abraham IAM"

Thus YESHUA is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE

Shalom

 

[HeIsHere]

There is no 3 separate beings here.
But expressions/essences of the one God.

Amen Wattie!!!

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

Was the Holy Spirit in the Son of man Jesus?

God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. This is why Jesus Christ said, believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

God is a Spirit. And God was manifest in the flesh.

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

Firstly, Baptism in the Name of "Jesus Christ" or "Lord Jesus" is mentioned to distinguish it from John's Baptism.

Nay. Thou dost err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Baptism is done in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Because it is written, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And again, to him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. This is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Not to "distinguish it from John's Baptism". If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. Thou therefore dost greatly err.

 

[Franc254]

I believe its not a trinity but rather Jesus working as the father, son and holy spirit for example (John 4:21-24)

“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” ....now here the Father has been described as the spirit...the author writes worshipers will worship the father in the spirit and truth for GOD is spirit and his worshippers must worship in spirit...now if we go to the book of 2nd Corinthians 2:14-18 "

"But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." The lord in this context is christ..just because there is a distinguish between the two doesnt mean that there are two persons...rather its just one person with another authority...the Lord (Christ
) is the spirit, the Father is also the spirit but its not three persons in one being rather just God

 

[kaylagrl]

I believe its not a trinity but rather Jesus working as the father, son and holy spirit for example (John 4:21-24)

“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” ....now here the Father has been described as the spirit...the author writes worshipers will worship the father in the spirit and truth for GOD is spirit and his worshippers must worship in spirit...now if we go to the book of 2nd Corinthians 2:14-18 "

"But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." The lord in this context is christ..just because there is a distinguish between the two doesnt mean that there are two persons...rather its just one person with another authority...the Lord (Christ
) is the spirit, the Father is also the spirit but its not three persons in one being rather just God

God in three persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. One God. Simple enough for a child to understand.

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

God in three persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. One God.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[tourist]

I'll guess it means belief in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Exactly, three separate unique entities that comprise one God.