"The rich man And Lazarus..."

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GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
#1
Feb 22, 2021
3,242
1,640
113
Midwest
#1
Previous study was Hell, Sheol, Hades!

"...The question is often asked, is the account of the rich man and
Lazarus a historical account or is it a parable?...or is it a made-up story...

...The hearers of this story could follow the contrast between these two men
right up to the moment of their deaths. At that point, however, the situation
changes drastically...

...Following are some [5] reasons that this should be considered a history
of two real men and not a parable...

...Being based on truth, the facts learned from the experience of the rich man
and Lazarus are consistent with what is found in other places in Scriptures.
From this passage we know [7 things]...
"
(E Bedore)

FULL study:
The rich man And Lazarus (I)
The rich man And Lazarus (II)

"And As It Is Appointed Unto men ONCE to die, ​
But After this The JUDGMENT!" (Hebrews 9:27)​

GRACE, Peace, And JOY...
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#2
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#2
Excellent OP!! Jesus gave us an actual glimpse of life after death. 2 men, one saved and one lost. In the OT, all souls went to Hades, but Lazarus went to Paradise, also called "Abraham's bosom" and the rich man went to torments. The 2 compartments were close enough together that residents of either compartment could see and talk to people in the other compartment, but they weren't able to cross over either way.

It is clear the rich man realized his grave mistake and he didn't want his brothers to have the same fate as he. When Jesus died, He went to Hades to "preach to the spirits in prison", and then took all the saved souls in Paradise with Him to heaven. So there are no souls in the compartment called Paradise now, and not since Jesus emptied it.

However, the souls of unbelievers continue to fill torments. There must be some interesting conversations there about that empty compartment across the fixed gulf.

So, at the GWT judgment, Hades will be emptied of all souls of the unsaved, to appear before the throne and be judged on their works. The result of that judgment will determine the level of how "tolerable" it will be for them in the LOF. Jesus taught that it will be more tolerable to Sodom and Gomorrha than some of the cities of His day, who rejected Him as Messiah.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#3
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#3
The man's name was Lazarus. I cannot recall when Jesus ever made-up real names for His parables.
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#4
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#4
oyster67 said:
The man's name was Lazarus. I cannot recall when Jesus ever made-up real names for His parables.
Click to expand...
Exactly! Never. And the mention of Abraham, who is known by everyone certainly clarifies that He was speaking of real people who were having a conversation.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#5
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#5
Yep, example parable

matt 13:3

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

this verse tell that He will speak parable.

lazarus is story, real name, real hell to give idea what he’ll look like,
to let us know hell do not mean cease to exist.

if hell mean cease to exist, Jesus will not said how rich man suffer
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#7
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#7
Matt 13:42
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
is this look cease to exist?

how non exist weep?
is non exist being have a teeth?

hell is suffering not cease to exist
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#8
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#8
He did not love his neighbor as himself.

We can hardly claim to have been born again, and ignore suffering that we are able to help ease.
But I believe God's children will not ignore it, because they have been given a new heart, and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
 
S

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
#9
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#9
FreeGrace2 said:
Excellent OP!! Jesus gave us an actual glimpse of life after death. 2 men, one saved and one lost. In the OT, all souls went to Hades, but Lazarus went to Paradise, also called "Abraham's bosom" and the rich man went to torments. The 2 compartments were close enough together that residents of either compartment could see and talk to people in the other compartment, but they weren't able to cross over either way.

It is clear the rich man realized his grave mistake and he didn't want his brothers to have the same fate as he. When Jesus died, He went to Hades to "preach to the spirits in prison", and then took all the saved souls in Paradise with Him to heaven. So there are no souls in the compartment called Paradise now, and not since Jesus emptied it.

However, the souls of unbelievers continue to fill torments. There must be some interesting conversations there about that empty compartment across the fixed gulf.

So, at the GWT judgment, Hades will be emptied of all souls of the unsaved, to appear before the throne and be judged on their works. The result of that judgment will determine the level of how "tolerable" it will be for them in the LOF. Jesus taught that it will be more tolerable to Sodom and Gomorrha than some of the cities of His day, who rejected Him as Messiah.
Click to expand...
Why do people continue to read verses in a Bible and come up with their own interpretations?
 
S

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
#10
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#10
PennEd said:
He did not love his neighbor as himself.

We can hardly claim to have been born again, and ignore suffering that we are able to help ease.
But I believe God's children will not ignore it, because they have been given a new heart, and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
"He did not love his neighbor as himself."

Who told you that? :ROFL:
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#11
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#11
Saul-to-Paul said:
"He did not love his neighbor as himself."

Who told you that? :ROFL:
Click to expand...
What are you talking about?
Did you read the account in Scripture? If ya did, then you'd see that JESUS told me that.

The dude literally had to walk over a guy who was sick and malnourished laying at his gate, hoping to catch a crumb that fell from his mouth.

That is loving his neighbor?
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#12
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#12
GRACE_ambassador said:
Previous study was Hell, Sheol, Hades!

"...The question is often asked, is the account of the rich man and
Lazarus a historical account or is it a parable?...or is it a made-up story...

...The hearers of this story could follow the contrast between these two men
right up to the moment of their deaths. At that point, however, the situation
changes drastically...

...Following are some [5] reasons that this should be considered a history
of two real men and not a parable...

...Being based on truth, the facts learned from the experience of the rich man
and Lazarus are consistent with what is found in other places in Scriptures.
From this passage we know [7 things]...
"
(E Bedore)

FULL study:
The rich man And Lazarus (I)
The rich man And Lazarus (II)

"And As It Is Appointed Unto men ONCE to die, ​
But After this The JUDGMENT!" (Hebrews 9:27)​

GRACE, Peace, And JOY...
Click to expand...
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

A mere drop of literal water being transported through literal flames would either evaporate quickly or be very hot by the time the rich man tried to drink it.

Also note, how was the rich man able to look across a gulf and single out who Abraham was if he didn’t even know what Abraham looked like?

Light a candle and try to look past the flame. Even a single flame on a wick is enough to completely or partially obscure the background. Now, what if the rich man was engulfed in flames? He’d be blinded. There’d no looking across a gulf to single out Abraham.

There’s also the matter of speaking clearly while allegedly engulfed in flames; that isn’t possible. No weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth going on. Never mind that there would have undoubtedly been other people crying out with a loud voice. Impossible to tell who in all of that racket. The sound would probably be like a roaring crowd.

Furthermore, Abraham explained the judgements against the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham said the reason the rich man was in torment was because he had good things in life and Lazarus in comfort for having evil things in life. These aren’t literal reasons for why anyone in the Old Testament or New Testament was ever lost or saved.

That’s not all. Abraham said that others wouldn’t be persuaded by someone who raised from the dead. A very curious statement, if literal, since Jesus rising from the dead is something God wants us to be persuaded by.

So in summary, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. Like all other parables, it’s meant to convey symbolism and spiritual insight into things Jesus has first-hand knowledge about.
 
S

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
#13
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#13
PennEd said:
What are you talking about?
Did you read the account in Scripture? If ya did, then you'd see that JESUS told me that.

The dude literally had to walk over a guy who was sick and malnourished laying at his gate, hoping to catch a crumb that fell from his mouth.

That is loving his neighbor?
Click to expand...
Jesus didn't tell you that. You told yourself that. :ROFL:
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#14
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#14
Mark 4:34 KJV
34But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
 
S

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
#15
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#15
Runningman said:
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

A mere drop of literal water being transported through literal flames would either evaporate quickly or be very hot by the time the rich man tried to drink it.

Also note, how was the rich man able to look across a gulf and single out who Abraham was if he didn’t even know what Abraham looked like?

Light a candle and try to look past the flame. Even a single flame on a wick is enough to completely or partially obscure the background. Now, what if the rich man was engulfed in flames? He’d be blinded. There’d no looking across a gulf to single out Abraham.

There’s also the matter of speaking clearly while allegedly engulfed in flames; that isn’t possible. No weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth going on. Never mind that there would have undoubtedly been other people crying out with a loud voice. Impossible to tell who in all of that racket. The sound would probably be like a roaring crowd.

Furthermore, Abraham explained the judgements against the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham said the reason the rich man was in torment was because he had good things in life and Lazarus in comfort for having evil things in life. These aren’t literal reasons for why anyone in the Old Testament or New Testament was ever lost or saved.

That’s not all. Abraham said that others wouldn’t be persuaded by someone who raised from the dead. A very curious statement, if literal, since Jesus rising from the dead is something God wants us to be persuaded by.

So in summary, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. Like all other parables, it’s meant to convey symbolism and spiritual insight into things Jesus has first-hand knowledge about.
Click to expand...
With that said, and I agree, who is the rich man?
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#16
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#16
Runningman said:
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

A mere drop of literal water being transported through literal flames would either evaporate quickly or be very hot by the time the rich man tried to drink it.

Also note, how was the rich man able to look across a gulf and single out who Abraham was if he didn’t even know what Abraham looked like?

Light a candle and try to look past the flame. Even a single flame on a wick is enough to completely or partially obscure the background. Now, what if the rich man was engulfed in flames? He’d be blinded. There’d no looking across a gulf to single out Abraham.

There’s also the matter of speaking clearly while allegedly engulfed in flames; that isn’t possible. No weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth going on. Never mind that there would have undoubtedly been other people crying out with a loud voice. Impossible to tell who in all of that racket. The sound would probably be like a roaring crowd.

Furthermore, Abraham explained the judgements against the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham said the reason the rich man was in torment was because he had good things in life and Lazarus in comfort for having evil things in life. These aren’t literal reasons for why anyone in the Old Testament or New Testament was ever lost or saved.

That’s not all. Abraham said that others wouldn’t be persuaded by someone who raised from the dead. A very curious statement, if literal, since Jesus rising from the dead is something God wants us to be persuaded by.

So in summary, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. Like all other parables, it’s meant to convey symbolism and spiritual insight into things Jesus has first-hand knowledge about.
Click to expand...
The rich man ask drop of water, he may never learn natural science, but it is not necessary mean parable
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#17
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#17
Jackson123 said:
Yep, example parable

matt 13:3
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

this verse tell that He will speak parable.
Click to expand...
So, by your "logic", everything Jesus said was a parable?? Really?

lazarus is story, real name, real hell to give idea what he’ll look like,
to let us know hell do not mean cease to exist.
Click to expand...
Jesus never used proper names in any of His parables.
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#18
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#18
FreeGrace2 said:
Excellent OP!! Jesus gave us an actual glimpse of life after death. 2 men, one saved and one lost. In the OT, all souls went to Hades, but Lazarus went to Paradise, also called "Abraham's bosom" and the rich man went to torments. The 2 compartments were close enough together that residents of either compartment could see and talk to people in the other compartment, but they weren't able to cross over either way.

It is clear the rich man realized his grave mistake and he didn't want his brothers to have the same fate as he. When Jesus died, He went to Hades to "preach to the spirits in prison", and then took all the saved souls in Paradise with Him to heaven. So there are no souls in the compartment called Paradise now, and not since Jesus emptied it.

However, the souls of unbelievers continue to fill torments. There must be some interesting conversations there about that empty compartment across the fixed gulf.

So, at the GWT judgment, Hades will be emptied of all souls of the unsaved, to appear before the throne and be judged on their works. The result of that judgment will determine the level of how "tolerable" it will be for them in the LOF. Jesus taught that it will be more tolerable to Sodom and Gomorrha than some of the cities of His day, who rejected Him as Messiah.
Saul-to-Paul said:
Why do people continue to read verses in a Bible and come up with their own interpretations?
Click to expand...
I have no idea. You'll have to ask them.

If that was directed to me, how about prove your claim about "my own interpretations".
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#20
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#20
Saul-to-Paul said:
With that said, and I agree, who is the rich man?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately Jesus never explained it exactly. It’s open to speculation what his identity is or what he may represent as far as I’m aware. The rest of what I said is able to be cross-referenced with other verses.
 
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