Once saved always saved?

[RichMan]

I think once saved always saved misunderstands what saved is.

Those who believe salvation can be lost are the ones who do not understand what saved is.
To believe you can keep yourself saved is to deny the power, promise, and love of the Savior.
To believe that baptism, keeping certain commandments, or any other works are necessary to receive and keep salvation also is to deny the power, promise, and love of the Savior.
If you are not eternally saved by Faith, only faith, nothing added, you are not saved.

 

[Dirtman]

Those who believe salvation can be lost are the ones who do not understand what saved is.
To believe you can keep yourself saved is to deny the power, promise, and love of the Savior.
To believe that baptism, keeping certain commandments, or any other works are necessary to receive and keep salvation also is to deny the power, promise, and love of the Savior.
If you are not eternally saved by Faith, only faith, nothing added, you are not saved.

I never said a word about keeping anything. I dont think human effort amounts to anything.
So the Bible speaks of security and also warns of apostasy. Also there is much writing about enduring to the end.
Its likely that human effort would cause falling away rather than preservation.

I think its very sad that you assumed that I hold some kind of works position because I dont think osas understands salvation.
I think these trite sayings fall utterly short.

 

[Dirtman]

There have been a lot of famous ministers ans ministries that have denied the faith recently.

 

[Runningman]

Why? Jews under the law do not have the same instructions as one under the blood of Christ.

Eph. 4:32 is written to practicing Christians:

Ephesians 4:32
32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

It echos the same kind of command Jesus gave to Jews in Matt. 6:14,15

Matthew 6:14,15
14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

I don’t like the “He was only speaking to Jews so it only applies to Jews” line of reasoning because that means the 4 gospel books aren’t for anyone alive today.

 

[Clayman]

I would likely have gone into detail but being you decided that sarcasm and insult was the Christian way to confront someone, I'll leave you in your gross, horrible, vitriolic, contentious, foolishness. Enjoy.
After all scripture says to have nothing to do with contentious men.

Wasn't trying to insult you at all, wasn't my intention, read through some osas threads people actually do think we are wrong thinking the things I posted and use are out of context.

Also 99% of people seem thick skinned here, But if your so sensitive why set yourself up but simply saying your wrong im right with no context and not only expect no retort but be offended by one.

Up to you if you want or don't want to elaborate on why I don't understand what saved means... I would have found it interesting to hear what you think even if we are on opposing sides of this topic.

 

[Amanuensis]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

I think the truly born again Christian if they backslide and start living in habitual sin will be so miserable they will repent and be restored. They will be afraid that they are going to go to hell if they live like that. If someone tells them "you are still saved, you just won't get as many rewards" they will not find that comforting at all.

Anyone who persists in habitual lusts while comforting themselves with the idea that they can go to heaven anyway but just not get as many rewards therefore they will keep indulging, is not born again yet.

Most who believe in eternal security will say that those how live in unrepentant willful indulgence are not born again yet. And I would agree. As it turns out we both agree that those who live like that are not going to heaven.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Definition of apostasy
1 : an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith. 2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection.

The term apostasy is derived from Ancient Greek: ἀποστάτης, meaning "rebellious" (Hebrew: מורד.)

"rebellious/rebellion/rebel" (Hebrew: מורד.) is found 56 times in the Word of God

Rebel is the same as Witchcraft

One of the most common images for apostasy in the Old Testament is adultery. "Apostasy is symbolized as Israel the faithless spouse turning away from Yahweh her marriage partner to pursue the advances of other gods (Jeremiah 2:1–3; Ezekiel 16)


New Testament Apostasy Examples:

1 Timothy 4:1 ~ Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2 Thessalonians 2:3 ~ Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Peter 2:20-22 ~ For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Hebrews 3:12 ~ Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Hebrews 6:4-8 ~ For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

^
IF YOU ARE ABLE TO FALL AWAY, BECOME APOSTATE, OSAS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE FROM THE PITS OF HELL!

 

[Lanolin]

I tend to think that the OPs person in question was not saved

Just because someone is born into a christian family, from a young age seeks GOd, studies the bible, and becomes a minister does not mean they have understood salvation. Jesus has to do the saving, not the person trying to save themselves by being religious.

I would think that person hadnt repented and believed.
usually after repenting and believing a person gets bapitised (believers baptism)

not get baptised by their parents just cos they want their child to stay in church.

while its seems somewhat a waste, the good news is that atheist who once pretended tobe a christian can still repent and be saved and become a born again christian.

 

[John146]

Eph. 4:32 is written to practicing Christians:

Ephesians 4:32
32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

It echos the same kind of command Jesus gave to Jews in Matt. 6:14,15

Matthew 6:14,15
14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

I don’t like the “He was only speaking to Jews so it only applies to Jews” line of reasoning because that means the 4 gospel books aren’t for anyone alive today.

Paul never states that our forgiveness is contingent on forgiving others. That’s conditional salvation, works based RCC.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Just passing through. Will reply in more detail later.

Notice how clearly Jesus Christ Himself refutes OSAS below by teaching the servant who was once forgiven later lost his soul because of unforgiveness and went to hell. That shows unforgiveness can be a mortal sin, or a "sin unto death" described in 1 Jn 5.

Also, as regards the excuse that this does not apply to Christians, that's not true. Peter asks about his "brother" I.e. a fellow Christian. The Lord also tells His Disciples, again Christians, to do this to their brothers, other Christians.

God Bless. From Matthew 18:

"
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
21Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29So his fellow servant fell down [e]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you [f]all.’ 30And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [g]his trespasses.”

 

[Dirtman]

Paul never states that our forgiveness is contingent on forgiving others. That’s conditional salvation, works based RCC.

I think it backward. If you are forgiven then you will by default be forgiving. Mercy is the fruit of mercy. If one is merciless likely he is unrepentant and is not forgiven.

 

[Dirtman]

I dont know any once saved always saved guy that isn't a decisionist.
I believe in security but that security isnt in my hands. In fact I think the only way that security can be lost is to take your salvation into your own hands.
Jesus tells of some folks that he will tell to go away. They believed themselves saved but were not. At some point they must have had faith but became lost by their works; evidenced in their answer to Jesus. We did stuff in your name. To which Jesus says bye you workers of iniquity; which is lawlessness. They died by their own hands trusting in their works.

 

[John146]

I think it backward. If you are forgiven then you will by default be forgiving. Mercy is the fruit of mercy. If one is merciless likely he is unrepentant and is not forgiven.

Sure, that's living the life as a believer, but our forgiveness of sins is not based upon forgiving others, rather, what Christ did at the cross.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes I mean a person can lose their salvation, because Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Paul didn't say anything about the possibility of losing salvation. He was talking about confidence. iow, those who believe that salvation can be lost really have NO CONFIDENCE in the Lord. So, HAVE confidence. Those He saves, He keeps.

And Jesus said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life, which is received the MOMENT of saving faith, SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 HAVE confidence is what Jesus said.

You must have patience when dealing with the word of God.

You must understand the word of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The sole issue is this: do YOU believe Jesus when He said that recipients of eternal life (which is WHEN they believe, John 5:24) shall never perish?

I get it

No, I don't think you do.

but some people don't, the bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22).

But that verse isn't about salvation. James didn't write "in order to be/stay saved..." either in front of the verse or at the end. You are making assumptions that are not warranted.

If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it.

That is not found in the Bible, in spite of the many people who think it is. Believers are commanded to bear fruit. It is not automatic or guaranteed.

If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him.

Are you aware of 1 Peter 3:15? Peter TELLS believers (saved people) to sanctify Jesus AS Lord. Jesus is Lord, obviously. But believers who focus on themself are NOT making Jesus Lord of their lives. Paul warned believers to NOT grieve/quench the Spirit. That means believers CAN do that. And those who are doing that are NOT making Jesus Lord of their lives.

Far too many believers are way too naive about the Christian life. They don't really understand the Bible.



Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think once saved always saved misunderstands what saved is.

Please explain. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I dont know any once saved always saved guy that isn't a decisionist.
I believe in security but that security isnt in my hands. In fact I think the only way that security can be lost is to take your salvation into your own hands.

Fortunately, salvation isn't in our own hands. We don't have the power to hold it anyway.

John 10:28,29 tells us exactly where are salvation is: in God's hand. And "no one" can remove us. Including us.

"No one" means "no person" and all believers are persons, so Jesus even covered that red herring.

Jesus tells of some folks that he will tell to go away. They believed themselves saved but were not. At some point they must have had faith but became lost by their works; evidenced in their answer to Jesus.

Rather, they never had faith, as evidenced by what Jesus told them: "I never knew you". If they HAD ever believed, how could Jesus say that?

We did stuff in your name. To which Jesus says bye you workers of iniquity; which is lawlessness. They died by their own hands trusting in their works.

They were religious, yes. But they were trusting in what THEY DID, not ever in what Jesus did for them on the cross.

Since they never believed, they never were children of God, and that is why Jesus said that He never knew them.

If they HAD ever believed in Him, they would have received the gift of eternal life, and Jesus would certainly have known them. And they wouldn't be at the GWT judgment anyway.

 

[Runningman]

Paul never states that our forgiveness is contingent on forgiving others. That’s conditional salvation, works based RCC.

That’s true, but Jesus stated it and John said it’s necessary to confess sins to God to be forgiven.

What do you say about this verse?

1 John 1:9
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[PennEd]

Notice how clearly Jesus Christ Himself refutes OSAS below by teaching the servant who was once forgiven later lost his soul because of unforgiveness and went to hell. That shows unforgiveness can be a mortal sin, or a "sin unto death" described in 1 Jn 5.

So you are saying unforgiveness is the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

 

[Dirtman]

Sure, that's living the life as a believer, but our forgiveness of sins is not based upon forgiving others, rather, what Christ did at the cross.

Like I said I think you are thinking backward. If you arent forgiving you werent forgiven. In other words there arent any merciless Christians.