The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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FreeGrace2 said:
This is a false doctrine, which comes from the false doctrine of election pushed by Calvinists.
ForestGreenCook said:
If they are sheep, they are God's, whether they be "the" sheep, or "his' sheep. all of the rest of mankind are goats (Matt 25:32). God also has other sheep that are not of this fold, that being the Gentiles, in which he brings together to make one fold.
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First, you failed to even discuss the false doctrine of election by Calvinists. Show me any verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. You can't. There aren't any.

Second, I proved that Christ died for everyone from John 10, because He plainly said He would lay down His life for THE sheep, and then noted there were sheep that were HIS and those NOT of HIS sheep.

If you can't discern between what HIS sheep and THE sheep mean, I see no reason to try to reason with you.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
First, the biblical doctrine of election is about being chosen for service. In EVERY verse that mentions the purpose of election, it is always about service.
ForestGreenCook said:
God's elect are the only ones that give service to God.
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Kinda like saying "chosen to be elect". Or "elected to be chosen".

Of course those who God elects are elected for service. Including Judas. John 6:70,71.
ForestGreenCook said:
All of the inspired scriptures have been written for instructions to God's elect on how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. They are not written to the unregenerate telling them how to "GET" deliverance.
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That is the most ridiculous statement! The Bible was written for the human race. To know who Creator God is and what He promises to everyone in the world. Which you do not believe. But it's true nonetheless.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
This is a false doctrine, which comes from the false doctrine of election pushed by Calvinists.

First, you failed to even discuss the false doctrine of election by Calvinists. Show me any verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. You can't. There aren't any.

Second, I proved that Christ died for everyone from John 10, because He plainly said He would lay down His life for THE sheep, and then noted there were sheep that were HIS and those NOT of HIS sheep.

If you can't discern between what HIS sheep and THE sheep mean, I see no reason to try to reason with you.
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I will grant you one thing, you have a strong and determined will to distort and reject scriptures to enable the unregenerate person to understand and respond to the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:7 - Because the carnal mind (unregenerate) is enemy against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be.

About the doctrine of election; Eph 1:4, says he choose "US". The "US" are "the faithful in Christ Jesus", as stated in verse 1.

In verse 5, that same "US" were predetermined to be adopted by Jesus Christ to be God's children. Part of that adoption process was Jesus's death on the cross for the same "US" (those that his Father gave him) (John 6:39).
 
ForestGreenCook said:
All of the inspired scriptures have been written for instructions to God's elect on how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. They are not written to the unregenerate telling them how to "GET" deliverance.
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I Must admit I'm scratching my head at this one🤔.

Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
This is a false doctrine, which comes from the false doctrine of election pushed by Calvinists.

First, you failed to even discuss the false doctrine of election by Calvinists. Show me any verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. You can't. There aren't any.

Second, I proved that Christ died for everyone from John 10, because He plainly said He would lay down His life for THE sheep, and then noted there were sheep that were HIS and those NOT of HIS sheep.
ForestGreenCook said:
I will grant you one thing, you have a strong and determined will to distort and reject scriptures to enable the unregenerate person to understand and respond to the things of the Spirit.
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Instead of repeating your empty claims, why don't you just address my points and try to refute them from Scripture. You give out a lot of words, but you have NO verses that refute what I say, and that is because what I SAY is found in the verses I quote.

Rom 8:7 - Because the carnal mind (unregenerate) is enemy against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be.
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I see you like to ADD to the Word of God. I can't find the word in parentheses in ANY translation of that verse. So you ADDED it, as if it belongs there.

Got a surprise for you. Believers have a carnal mind. The word "carnal" simply means "fleshly", and refers to the sinful human nature, where all of our sins originate.

Paul took the Corinthian congregation to task for their own carnality. 1 Cor 1 and 3

About the doctrine of election; Eph 1:4, says he choose "US". The "US" are "the faithful in Christ Jesus", as stated in verse 1.

In verse 5, that same "US" were predetermined to be adopted by Jesus Christ to be God's children. Part of that adoption process was Jesus's death on the cross for the same "US" (those that his Father gave him) (John 6:39).
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What kind of defense is this? You didn't prove anything. Just a lot of words again. Your explanations are not doctrines.

Here are some verses that prove what I say; that election is to service.

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

See? I quote verses that SAY what I SAY.

Now, your turn. Quote at least 1 verse that SAYS that election is to salvation.
 
brightfame52 said:
post 1311, 1312 did you read ?
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Yes. And still I will say in regards to the post I was answering ( not yours 1311 or 1312) that post being 1319.

Your posts only regard effectual calling. The post I was referring to states that scriptures are not for the unregenerate (unbelievers) and that it is 'merely' a guide book as to how to walk with God.. An instruction manual.

One thing to note, only those of a spiritual mind can fully understand scripture, yet even a young child can understand the teaching needed to make one wise for salvation. That you need to believe. The second point is that only those effectual called are saved. The gospel call is a universal provlamation to all people. Well would be well advised to to teach the scriptures to all people. Who God calls is up to God.

Remmeber:

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

God's word is the means!


Hyper Calvinism is in greivious error and biblically untenable. Remember the free offer of the gospel goes to all men!
 
phil36 said:
I Must admit I'm scratching my head at this one🤔.

Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
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Salvation, according to Greek translation means "a deliverance".


Most of God's born again children, whether you are one of them, I do not know, do not understand that the scriptures teach that there is a deliverance (salvation) eternally, by God's sovereign grace, without any works of mankind, and there is a deliverance (salvation) here in time by mankind's good works.

Our faith has nothing to do with our eternal deliverance (salvation), but our faith has everything to do with our timely deliverances (salvations).

By God's, well intended, children applying all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures to mean eternal, leads them to believe that they have to do something to receive eternal deliverance. This is what the scriptures will teach, if you do not rightly divide the salvation (deliverance) scriptures.

This error, in not rightly dividing the salvation scriptures, create the ongoing dispute of God's grace, verses, mankind's works.

Romans 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (delivered) which leads up to verse 17, regarding our faith. The unregenerate (1 Cor 2:14) will not call upon the Lord, because he is a Spirit, and they cannot know spiritual things.

The new born babe in Christ begins to gain faith by hearing the gospel preached, as Romans 10:17 indicates.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
Got a surprise for you. Believers have a carnal mind. The word "carnal" simply means "fleshly", and refers to the sinful human nature, where all of our sins originat
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No surprise!


Yes, before the unregenerate person has been reborn he only has one personality, and that is his fleshly nature. Paul tells us in Romans 7:23 that the born again regenerated person has two personalities within them, the flesh and the Spirit. The unregenerate person does not have the Spirit within him.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
First, you failed to even discuss the false doctrine of election by Calvinists. Show me any verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. You can't. There aren't any.
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God choose (elected) us before the foundation of the world, (Eph 1:4) and predetermined that Jesus would adopt them as his children.(Eph 1:5). Jesus died to pay for the sins of those that his Father gave him, the same ones that he choose, and predestined, and Jesus said that he would lose none of them, but raise them up at the last day (John 6:39). That is ELECTION TO SALVATION.
 
ForestGreenCook said:
What exactly is this FREE OFFER?
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Hi ForestGreenCook,

It's the free offer of the gospel (to all people). The gospel message is universal in scope.

The power of which is to those who have faith: Romans 1:16-17.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.
 
phil36 said:
Hi ForestGreenCook,

It's the free offer of the gospel (to all people). The gospel message is universal in scope.

The power of which is to those who have faith: Romans 1:16-17.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.
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Are you suggesting that eternal deliverance is offered as a free gift through having a knowledge of the gospel?

I have read other scripture that tells us that there is a deliverance (salvation) given, not eternally, but here in this world to a born again person by gaining a knowledge of the gospel. Romans 10:1-3 is one example.

To my knowledge, the gospel is not a means of obtaining eternal deliverance, neither is our faith.

We obtain eternal deliverance only through the shed blood of Jesus, and that is only for those that God gave to his Son (John 6:39).
 
ForestGreenCook said:
We obtain eternal deliverance only through the shed blood of Jesus, and that is only for those that God gave to his Son (John 6:39).
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Amen. Excellent summary. Even better is "ETERNAL Deliverance (Past tense)
is From The Penalty of sin, and ETERNAL Life With God, By The Resurrection
Of Christ From the dead, According To The Scriptures (GRACE Gospel)!"

The Other TWO Deliverances are from the (present) Power of sin, and
Then, our last (future) Deliverance Into Eternity Will Be At the rapture/
/resurrection, which Will Be Deliverance from the Presence of sin.

Amen! Hallelujah!! Praise The LORD's Wonderful Name!!! ie:

"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not
trust in ourselves, but in God Which raiseth the dead: Who delivered
us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in Whom we trust that He
will yet deliver us;" (2 Corinthians 1:9-10 KJB!)

More Is here: GRACE And Peace...
 
FreeGrace2 said:
Got a surprise for you. Believers have a carnal mind. The word "carnal" simply means "fleshly", and refers to the sinful human nature, where all of our sins originat
ForestGreenCook said:
No surprise!

Yes, before the unregenerate person has been reborn he only has one personality, and that is his fleshly nature.
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Speaking of which, can you explain how a person becomes regenerated?
 
FreeGrace2 said:
First, you failed to even discuss the false doctrine of election by Calvinists. Show me any verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. You can't. There aren't any.
ForestGreenCook said:
God choose (elected) us before the foundation of the world, (Eph 1:4) and predetermined that Jesus would adopt them as his children.(Eph 1:5).
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This doesn't mention anything about the purpose of election. What verse SAYS that God elects people to salvation? That is my question.

Seems everybody thinks election is to salvation, so where are the verses that SAY SO?

Jesus died to pay for the sins of those that his Father gave him, the same ones that he choose, and predestined, and Jesus said that he would lose none of them, but raise them up at the last day (John 6:39). That is ELECTION TO SALVATION.
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Nope. Sorry. Nada. Your answer fails to quote any verse that says what you claim.

I've already given verses that plainly SAY that God chooses for service.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
Here are some verses that prove what I say; that election is to service.
ForestGreenCook said:
That is why God had to choose them in the first place, because no one would seek to serve him, no, not one. (psalms 53:1-3)
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You are still missing the point. The "us" in Eph 1:4 is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". So the "us" in v.4 means believers.

So, God chooses BELIEVERS to service. That's the "in the first place". There is no verse that says God chooses to save people in order to choose them to service. And that makes no sense anyway.

Again, what verse plainly shows that election is to salvation? You still haven't given any verse that says election is to salvation.

I understand that most believers think it is, but that is only because of incorrect teaching over the centuries.

As to your comment about "no one seeking Him", Paul quoted a verse from the OT where the subject was about atheists. It is atheists that don't seek God. Why? Because they don't believe He exists.

No one seeks what they don't think exists. That wouldn't make sense.
 
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