Once saved always saved?

[phil36]

Sorry, I accidentally posted prematurely.
As for Dillahunty - He wasn't someone who heard the word, continued for a while and then suddenly fell away. He was born into a Christian family, earnestly sought God, dedicated himself at an early age, studied the Bible, was going to become a minister, to "fulfil his duty as per 1Per3:15" and subsequently found he was unable to justify his assertions.

The simple answer is he wasn't born again. There are many in the church who try and live a moral life, they do good, read the Bible, treat their family well.. And yet it turns out to be an out ward morality, not a morality born or a new heart. Therefore whenn they do leave it shows they were never actually one of us (cf. penned post).

The church from our perspective is what we could call the visible church.. There be believers and unbelievers (self deceived), but the invisible Church, that is the true Church that only God can see is those in Christ.

We can never really know who is saved and who isn't. But God knows.

So in the visible church (what we can see) we have people who enjoy the benefits of coming together with the invisible church (what God sees) and this is what is being discussed in Hebrews 6:54-6"

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

 

[FreeGrace2]

The simple answer is he wasn't born again. There are many in the church who try and live a moral life, they do good, read the Bible, treat their family well.. And yet it turns out to be an out ward morality, not a morality born or a new heart. Therefore whenn they do leave it shows they were never actually one of us (cf. penned post).

The church from our perspective is what we could call the visible church.. There be believers and unbelievers (self deceived), but the invisible Church, that is the true Church that only God can see is those in Christ.

We can never really know who is saved and who isn't. But God knows.

So in the visible church (what we can see) we have people who enjoy the benefits of coming together with the invisible church (what God sees) and this is what is being discussed in Hebrews 6:54-6"

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

It's too bad that believers don't understand that saved people do fall away from the faith. Jesus even said so. And He gave the reason people do fall away.

To a Calvinist, they claim that the person was never saved to begin with, and will end up in hell.
To an Arminian, they claim that the person WAS saved, but lost it, and will end up in hell.

How 'bout that! The poor guy ends up in hell in BOTH theologies, which are polar opposites. Sort of a lose-lose situation.

In fact, once given the gift of eternal life, Jesus said the recipient of eternal life shall never perish.

 

[Eli1]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

Quick question.
How come you have to go to the library to access the Internet? You don’t have Internet through other means?

 

[phil36]

It's too bad that believers don't understand that saved people do fall away from the faith. Jesus even said so. And He gave the reason people do fall away.

To a Calvinist, they claim that the person was never saved to begin with, and will end up in hell.
To an Arminian, they claim that the person WAS saved, but lost it, and will end up in hell.

How 'bout that! The poor guy ends up in hell in BOTH theologies, which are polar opposites. Sort of a lose-lose situation.

In fact, once given the gift of eternal life, Jesus said the recipient of eternal life shall never perish.

So in your estimation someone can live a carnal life and also have eternal life🤔

 

[Live4Him3]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is a potentially damnable heresy.

I made a post on this topic my first time through here as "Live4Him", and you can read it here if you're interested in doing so:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...f-temporary-eternal-life.197947/#post-4511990

 

[FreeGrace2]

So in your estimation someone can live a carnal life and also have eternal life🤔

Your question shows that you do not believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

The better question is why don't you believe what Jesus said?

While believer may live a carnal life, they will face God's painful discipline. Do you not believe that as well?

Speaking of "carnal" lives, haven't you read what Paul wrote to the Corinthians?

1 Cor 3-
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still carnal—mere infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
3 You are still carnal. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not carnal? Are you not acting like mere humans (unbelievers)?
4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is a potentially damnable heresy.

Are you aware that you just called Jesus Christ a heretic?? What in the world is wrong with you?

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse CAN'T be misunderstood. So, those who do misunderstand it don't want to believe the clear message.

 

[phil36]

Your question shows that you do not believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

The better question is why don't you believe what Jesus said?

While believer may live a carnal life, they will face God's painful discipline. Do you not believe that as well?

Speaking of "carnal" lives, haven't you read what Paul wrote to the Corinthians?

1 Cor 3-
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still carnal—mere infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
3 You are still carnal. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not carnal? Are you not acting like mere humans (unbelievers)?
4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

So help me out. Can you live a carnal life and inherit eternal life🤔

 

[Runningman]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

The New Covenant is a covenant of faith. Maybe that point isn’t stressed enough, but when I’ve looked at the Bible I see that God takes covenants quite seriously. Cozying up to God and entering a covenant with Him then abandoning the covenant isn’t something He just accepts and moves on quickly from.

Psalm 78 gives us a play-by-play of how God distributed consequences, the removal of promises, and blessings for disobedience in the Old Covenant. Is God the same now? I believe so, yes, but God does not quit trying to reclaim His lost sheep.

A covenant is an agreement between and individual and God. I know that often what attracts people to Christ is the salvation and blessings, but it’s so much more than that. God expects people to keep their faith in Him because it’s a covenant of faith with Christ as the mediator.

I would be very careful merely accepting that if someone who genuinely came to the faith then genuinely abandoned the faith would be saved.

Consider this bit in 2 Peter 3 where Peter was addressing his brothers, sisters, and friends urging them to come to either come to repentance or perish:

2 Peter 3:8,9
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[Live4Him3]

Are you aware that you just called Jesus Christ a heretic?? What in the world is wrong with you?

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse CAN'T be misunderstood. So, those who do misunderstand it don't want to believe the clear message.

I called Jesus Christ no such thing.

He said nobody can snatch anybody out of his hand, but he did not say that nobody could walk away of their own volition.

Anyhow, if you're teaching "OSAS", then I'll tell YOU plainly that you're a heretic.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So help me out. Can you live a carnal life and inherit eternal life🤔

You just moved the goal posts. Your first question was can a person live a carnal life and have eternal life.

So I'll answer both (but different) questions.

Yes, a person can live a carnal life and have eternal life. But they will face God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.

No, a person cannot live a carnal life and inherit eternal life.

OK, now you can ask me what is the difference.

 

[Blade]

Can we maybe think about those weak in the faith when some say things like "its a potentially damnable heresy." Lets understand "damnable" deserving condemnation/subject to or worthy of divine condemnation. Not even worth touching since no offense Live4HIm3 you don't understand what you are saying. What you said goes against the word of God.

I understand we here on this fallen earth believe we fully know understand "salvation" yet even the Angels don't understand and long to. So just what are those that lose faith walking away from? They know that they know that they know God the great I am and Yeshua savior of the world and the sweet holy spirit are real and then walked away? HAHA I don't believe there is one on this site or any other that can claim this. Seen Him in His glory and power and on this throne have we and have countless encounters with the holy Spirit talking showing us telling us what the Father said and things to come have we? Its as Christ said they are blind.

They don't know HIM. Its not HIM they are walking away from. I read as you do posts here and all over the net (the world) and so many are easily moved. So much confusion. So many have no foundation at all so its not built on Christ. Spent time hours days weeks months years getting to know Him have we? Know Him like you do your son/daughter or best friend or wife/husband? What makes Him laugh about you? Something you do that makes Him laugh? What did He say when you left before Him and didn't even ask what He thought about it? Silly things but do you know how many have no clue He is THIS real?

So many don't share about this because you get made fun of by your family. Look how some talk if you simply believe you are forever saved (potentially damnable heresy). This does here does not bother me since they know not what they say. Foundation whats it built on? So when the winds and waves come if not built on Christ the rock then it all comes down. Some ask about carnal yet don't know most of what we do say think is carnal. God is a spirit "God is spirit [the Source of life, yet invisible to mankind], and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Do you worship Him in spirit and truth? Do you know you are seated in heavenly places? There is so much here that NEVER gets talked about.

Why not just believe just simply believe? John 3:16 Rom 10:9-10 that's it. Believe that your saved. The questions can you lose your salvation or not does not come God. Don't believe me ask Him. All He will do is give you chapter and verse John 3:16-17 and ask do you believe? Yes.. you are saved and grafted in and you are in the Fathers hands.

So to ask about so and so where all we know is only what they shared then as if God only sees that one moment the enemy lied confused them and they fell. As if everything that came before never happened that God did in there life. Its not this one moment God sees. He knows from the start to the finish. And what Christ started in each one HE will finish for HE can not lie. So today they fell.. are you praying for them? The enemy lied to our family ..so lets pray and get them back. Lost for ever? I don't believe since they do not truly see. Satan walked with God knows Him in all His glory and power. We know sin fallen first. We know nothing truly about where God is what the supernatural is and praise GOD He knows this and does not think like us and we get PRAISE GOD no say in this.

 

[LoveBrokeThru]

We're free to reject Him at any time and kick Him out.

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." 2 Corinthians 13:5

You can't "Kick out" Spiritual Union.
Jesus is not like a potato chip that you swallow and now is in your GUT.
Understand?

Christ and your Spirit, have become ONE....if you are born again.
You can't undo that by a behavior issue or a bad mood or a mind set.
When Christ is IN YOU, that is not TEMPORARY, nor is it based on YOU at that point.
God caused that to happen, and this Spiritual UNION is eternal.

"well, what if i hate Christ now". = then you are STUPID and DECEIVED.

So what if you do..... = That does not change a BIRTH., and to born again is a Holy Spirit CAUSED Birth.

You can no more change this, or end being BORN....again....., then you could go to your mother and say, "im not born anymore, and my MIND IS MADE UP", and you not be on the earth anymore.

So, when you read or hear some mental boob trying to convince you that your Salvation that is Christ in you, is based on how you think or behave, then just ignore it, as these forum Trolls need to be ignored.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you aware that you just called Jesus Christ a heretic?? What in the world is wrong with you?

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse CAN'T be misunderstood. So, those who do misunderstand it don't want to believe the clear message.

I called Jesus Christ no such thing.

Really? You directly said that the doctrine of eternal security is a heresy.

Jesus taught eternal security, as I showed from John 10:28. So, in essence, you DID call Jesus a heretic.

He said nobody can snatch anybody out of his hand, but he did not say that nobody could walk away of their own volition.

So you really think the second part of the verse trumps the first part? Are you KIDDING me?

Well, I'm not that dumb. The FIRST part of the verse STATES eternal security in clear words.

Jesus said: I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Since you deny eternal security, you cannot believe what Jesus said.

As to the second part, He actually said " I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Pay close attention to "no one". It means "no person" or "no created being", which would include the angelic race.

All believers are persons. Therefore, Jesus cut you off at the pass in the second part of the verse. Not even yourself can remove yourself from God's hand.

So, I have to ask you; are you stronger than God's hand?

Anyhow, if you're teaching "OSAS", then I'll tell YOU plainly that you're a heretic.

By extention, you JUST ONCE AGAIN called Jesus a heretic.

I would suggest that you quit.
If you won't believe John 10:28a, then you just don't want to. But it's clear enough and you have no excuse to mess it up with whatever you think He meant.

What He meant was that EVERYONE who is given eternal life (that would be believers only) shall never perish.

Do you have any idea what "never perish" means?

Don't think that 10:28 modifies or changes what 10:28 says. It doesn't.

 

[Live4Him3]

Well, I'm not that dumb.

Your words say otherwise.

 

[phil36]

You just moved the goal posts. Your first question was can a person live a carnal life and have eternal life.

So I'll answer both (but different) questions.

Yes, a person can live a carnal life and have eternal life. But they will face God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.

No, a person cannot live a carnal life and inherit eternal life.

OK, now you can ask me what is the difference.

 

[phil36]

You just moved the goal posts. Your first question was can a person live a carnal life and have eternal life.

So I'll answer both (but different) questions.

Yes, a person can live a carnal life and have eternal life. But they will face God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.

No, a person cannot live a carnal life and inherit eternal life.

OK, now you can ask me what is the difference.

What's the diffence.. And is Jesus their Lord?

 

[phil36]

I called Jesus Christ no such thing.

He said nobody can snatch anybody out of his hand, but he did not say that nobody could walk away of their own volition.

Anyhow, if you're teaching "OSAS", then I'll tell YOU plainly that you're a heretic.

Why is he a heretic🤔. What's the biblical reason?

What did he say that is heretical.. I must have missed it🤔

 

[Adstar]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

No one loses salvation because of a sin or sins.. ( unless one blasphemes the Holy Spirit and i am not certain a Holy Spirit indwelled Christian can do that)

But yes i believe if a person ceases to believe Jesus and ceases to trust in the Atonement that paid the penalty for their sins they will lose their salvation..

2 Peter 2:
17 "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. {18} For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. {19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. {20} For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. {22} But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

 

[wattie]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

Because of free will , a believer could technically become an atheist ..and their salvation remains..

The salvation remains because the initial salvation had nothing to do with good behavior.. but belief in Jesus. John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36.. Romans 5:8.. Ephesians 2:8-9.

But they would be convicted, rebuked and admonished to stop unbelief by God. This is where the scenario of a believer turning to atheism becomes very unlikely.