Is Calvinism the truth?
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FreeGrace2 said:
What a foolish statement. In the first part, you ACTUALLY ADMIT that there are verses "that allows the unregenerate people to be able to understand and resp[ond to the things of the Spirit". And I ABSOLUTELY accept your verdict, because there ARE such verses that DO allow all people, including the unregenerate to UNDERSTAND AND RESPOND to the Scriptures.
What a foolish statement. In the first part, you ACTUALLY ADMIT that there are verses "that allows the unregenerate people to be able to understand and resp[ond to the things of the Spirit". And I ABSOLUTELY accept your verdict, because there ARE such verses that DO allow all people, including the unregenerate to UNDERSTAND AND RESPOND to the Scriptures.
What did you do; delete it?
FreeGrace2 said:
What a foolish statement. In the first part, you ACTUALLY ADMIT that there are verses "that allows the unregenerate people to be able to understand and resp[ond to the things of the Spirit". And I ABSOLUTELY accept your verdict, because there ARE such verses that DO allow all people, including the unregenerate to UNDERSTAND AND RESPOND to the Scriptures.
Regardless of your thoughts about 1 Cor 2:14, there ARE unbelievers who DO understand the gospel message as stated in the Bible, and yet don't believe it.
Everyone is free to their own opinions. But I've seen unbelievers explain the gospel.
That said, what you claim isn't the gospel message.
What a foolish statement. In the first part, you ACTUALLY ADMIT that there are verses "that allows the unregenerate people to be able to understand and resp[ond to the things of the Spirit". And I ABSOLUTELY accept your verdict, because there ARE such verses that DO allow all people, including the unregenerate to UNDERSTAND AND RESPOND to the Scriptures.
Well, there you go.
I assure you I wasn't aware of anything you should have included. I took your sentence as it was written.
Regardless of your thoughts about 1 Cor 2:14, there ARE unbelievers who DO understand the gospel message as stated in the Bible, and yet don't believe it.
Everyone is free to their own opinions. But I've seen unbelievers explain the gospel.
That said, what you claim isn't the gospel message.
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you actually point out where I "sound like the critics of Jesus"?
You continue to be confused. I have criticised YOUR doctrine, not biblical doctrine.
I DARE you to find even 1 quote from me that criticizes biblical doctrine. But of course you won't bother. Because you know I haven't done it.
Still no specifics, eh? Of course not. You don't have any.
Your "interpretations" aren't even close to evangelicalism.
Could you actually point out where I "sound like the critics of Jesus"?
You continue to be confused. I have criticised YOUR doctrine, not biblical doctrine.
I DARE you to find even 1 quote from me that criticizes biblical doctrine. But of course you won't bother. Because you know I haven't done it.
Still no specifics, eh? Of course not. You don't have any.
Still being vague, I see. As to your claim of debunking, that is just an opinion.
Your "interpretations" aren't even close to evangelicalism.
Tut tut
The doctrine is perfectly clear
By grace ye are saved through faith and that not of yourselves lest any man should boast
You don't want it to say that so you run to find a dictionary
FreeGrace2 said:
OK, it is clear that you don't have stomach for Greek grammar, even though it was the language that gave us the NT. Your bad.
This isn't about what I want the Bible to say. It is ONLY about what the Bible SAYS, which you DON'T want it to say.
Get your facts straight.
Reformed doctrines cannot be found in the Bible. Fact.
You can't prove that unregenerate man can't believe the gospel.
You can't prove that election is to salvation.
You can't prove that Christ ONLY died for believers.
You can't prove that God's grace is irresistible.
You can't prove that true believers WILL ALWAYS persevere.
But, good luck trying to prove any of these doctrines.
OK, it is clear that you don't have stomach for Greek grammar, even though it was the language that gave us the NT. Your bad.
You are free to ignore Greek grammar all you want, but the truth remains. The gift in Eph 2:8 is our salvation. The genders match.
As I have proven from the Greek grammar.
Oh, I see. You don't trust dictionaries eh?
This isn't about what I want the Bible to say. It is ONLY about what the Bible SAYS, which you DON'T want it to say.
Get your facts straight.
Reformed doctrines cannot be found in the Bible. Fact.
You can't prove that unregenerate man can't believe the gospel.
You can't prove that election is to salvation.
You can't prove that Christ ONLY died for believers.
You can't prove that God's grace is irresistible.
You can't prove that true believers WILL ALWAYS persevere.
But, good luck trying to prove any of these doctrines.
Peace be unto you
even the devils can believe but they can never have saving faith
I believe election is unto the body of Christ, the church, it does not exclude any from being saved
Christ died for sinners, He imparts life to whom He will
People can fall from grace, falling from grace is not tantamount to losing salvation for the saved one
God is irresistible in the day of His power
eternal means eternal, eternal life means eternal life.
FreeGrace2 said:
OK, it is clear that you don't have stomach for Greek grammar, even though it was the language that gave us the NT. Your bad.
You are free to ignore Greek grammar all you want, but the truth remains. The gift in Eph 2:8 is our salvation. The genders match.
No, of course not. James 2:19 isn't about believing, but rather KNOWING from experience that "God is One". iow, they believe that God is Triune; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How do they know that? Did someone simply tell them and they "have faith" that God is Triune?
Of course not. They KNOW that God is Triune because they ALL were once in heaven with Triune God.
They EXPERIENCED the Triune God.
It is amazing how many believers misunderstand James 2:19 and come up with some kind of silly "demons believe but not saving faith", when that isn't even the point.
There are 2 ways to believe something. An example to demonstrate.
Young boy was told by Mother that the top of the stove is very hot and not to touch. He doesn't believe her and touches the stove and burns his fingers. NOW, he DOES believe the stove top is very hot. He experienced it.
Another young boy was told my Mother that the top of the stove is very hot and not to touch. He BELIEVES her and never touches the stove and therefore never burns his fingers.
Do you see the difference here?
Salvation is a trust issue. The first boy didn't trust his mother and got burned. The second boy trusted his mother and avoided getting burned.
OK, it is clear that you don't have stomach for Greek grammar, even though it was the language that gave us the NT. Your bad.
You are free to ignore Greek grammar all you want, but the truth remains. The gift in Eph 2:8 is our salvation. The genders match.
And to you.
What is it exactly that the devils "believe" in the Bible? Is it the gospel? Do they trust Jesus for their salvation?
No, of course not. James 2:19 isn't about believing, but rather KNOWING from experience that "God is One". iow, they believe that God is Triune; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How do they know that? Did someone simply tell them and they "have faith" that God is Triune?
Of course not. They KNOW that God is Triune because they ALL were once in heaven with Triune God.
They EXPERIENCED the Triune God.
It is amazing how many believers misunderstand James 2:19 and come up with some kind of silly "demons believe but not saving faith", when that isn't even the point.
There are 2 ways to believe something. An example to demonstrate.
Young boy was told by Mother that the top of the stove is very hot and not to touch. He doesn't believe her and touches the stove and burns his fingers. NOW, he DOES believe the stove top is very hot. He experienced it.
Another young boy was told my Mother that the top of the stove is very hot and not to touch. He BELIEVES her and never touches the stove and therefore never burns his fingers.
Do you see the difference here?
Salvation is a trust issue. The first boy didn't trust his mother and got burned. The second boy trusted his mother and avoided getting burned.
Without a doubt NT election is about believers. The question that needs answering is this: for what PURPOSE are believers chosen?
He died for all sinners.
Amen!
However, the Bible is clear that His will isn't irresistible. 1 Tim 2:3,4
Amen.
If, by chance, you were interested in finding James White's views, he's easily accessible via Youtube, at - eg - Dr. James White - Calvinism.
There is a deliverance (salvation) here in this world when a born again child of God comes unto a knowledge of the truth. I have shown you an example of this in Romans 10:1-3.
The first boy did not trust his mother because he was unregenerate. The second boy trusted his mother because he was born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is a spiritual faith issue.
FreeGrace2 said:
However, the Bible is clear that His will isn't irresistible. 1 Tim 2:3,4
However, the Bible is clear that His will isn't irresistible. 1 Tim 2:3,4
I don't buy any of this stuff. You don't even explain what you mean by what you mean by "deliverance" anyway. And you quote verses that link BELIEVE in Christ for your "whatever" deliverance, when they are clearly about eternal soul salvation.
FreeGrace2 said:
Salvation is a trust issue. The first boy didn't trust his mother and got burned. The second boy trusted his mother and avoided getting burned.
I'll bet you spiritualize everything in the Bible.
Salvation is a trust issue. The first boy didn't trust his mother and got burned. The second boy trusted his mother and avoided getting burned.
Nonsense. I didn't give you a spiritualized parable. I gave you a real life example of 2 different boys, to illustrate how people come to believe things. Some believe things because they EXPERIENCED them, and others simply trust what they are told.
Show me any verse that speaks of "a spiritual faith". There aren't any.
I'll bet you spiritualize everything in the Bible.
P
Polar
Guest
P
Polar
Guest
and again
White is a 5 point Calvinist...T.U.L.I.P.
White believes that a person is regenerated by God's will alone and there is no choice
You can call it modern or old. It's all the same brain washed unbiblical goulash. Still, people will be persuaded as they will and personalities play a part, along with life experiences and other considerations. Following Calvinism or Whiteism or whatever, if it's in the reformed category and of the tulip persuasion, it is not biblical. God does not put His Spirit into people PRIOR to salvation as these folks will tell you He does.
FreeGrace2 said:
He died for all sinners.
Your statement isn't even related to this verse. It doesn't even mention Christ's death. It is about eternal security, not His work on the cross.
However, here are the verses that very plainly and specifically teach who Christ did die for.
John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
I have seen EVERY Calvinist argument that tries to twist these verses into meaning Christ didn't die for literally everyone.
So please don't bother me with any such arguments. When "all" doesn't literally mean "everyone in the human race", then there is no qualifying descriptors to that effect. So in referring to humans, the word "all" does mean everyone. It is an inclusive word.
And "world" means all of humanity, unless there are descriptors that LIMIT the meaning to some certain group or area of the world.
So, Jesus Christ did die for everyone. The world. All of humanity. Every last one of them.
The Bible says so.
He died for all sinners.
John 6:39 - And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
Your statement isn't even related to this verse. It doesn't even mention Christ's death. It is about eternal security, not His work on the cross.
However, here are the verses that very plainly and specifically teach who Christ did die for.
John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
I have seen EVERY Calvinist argument that tries to twist these verses into meaning Christ didn't die for literally everyone.
So please don't bother me with any such arguments. When "all" doesn't literally mean "everyone in the human race", then there is no qualifying descriptors to that effect. So in referring to humans, the word "all" does mean everyone. It is an inclusive word.
And "world" means all of humanity, unless there are descriptors that LIMIT the meaning to some certain group or area of the world.
So, Jesus Christ did die for everyone. The world. All of humanity. Every last one of them.
The Bible says so.
P
Polar
Guest
So are you saying God is not sovereign
oh so tricky
here is a pre-programmed question Calvinists are taught to ask even though no one has ever said God is not Sovereign.He is. That does not mean he is also a puppet master. YOU are saying God causes disaster, sin, evil and every other thing that believers KNOW are not from God.
Yes you are.
P
Polar
Guest
What is this reformed is not Calvinism business? Do y'all know what the reformation is? I think not.
Calvinism is actually called the 'reformed tradition' and stems from the 16th C. it is notable to mention that Calvin himself, baptized in the Catholic church as an infant, never spoke of his salvation through Christ, but referred to and believed in infant baptism and considered himself saved from that moment on, when as an infant with no choice in the matter, he was baptized...actually has his head only sprinkled. No wonder then he taught that we have no choice in our salvation.
Does scripture teach infant baptism? Does scripture state we do not need to confess Christ as our Savior?
No doubt, there are different flavors of the reformed now just as there are different flavors of any group. Some take the 5 points and water them down, some only believe 3 or 4 out of the 5 and then we have the 5 pointers who may even question a person's salvation if they are not Calvinist in their persuasion.
You can't get away from the fact that the word 'reformed' has attachments to Calvinism that may not be obvious, but are nonetheless present.
Calvinism is actually called the 'reformed tradition' and stems from the 16th C. it is notable to mention that Calvin himself, baptized in the Catholic church as an infant, never spoke of his salvation through Christ, but referred to and believed in infant baptism and considered himself saved from that moment on, when as an infant with no choice in the matter, he was baptized...actually has his head only sprinkled. No wonder then he taught that we have no choice in our salvation.
Does scripture teach infant baptism? Does scripture state we do not need to confess Christ as our Savior?
No doubt, there are different flavors of the reformed now just as there are different flavors of any group. Some take the 5 points and water them down, some only believe 3 or 4 out of the 5 and then we have the 5 pointers who may even question a person's salvation if they are not Calvinist in their persuasion.
You can't get away from the fact that the word 'reformed' has attachments to Calvinism that may not be obvious, but are nonetheless present.
