MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT PLENTY OF CESSATIONISTS HAVE SAID we don't need miracles anymore because we have the bible.
Former pentecostal
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I think I might feel a little infirm if I had just been stoned and dragged out of the city for deadIf Paul had no physical issues, why does he speak of infirmities?
Or, how could he take pleasure in them if they were non-existent?
Good answergood question. His physical issues were from being beaten, persecuted, and imprisoned.
Paul wrote many of his Epistles in Prison as I know you know this
The Greek translation for infirmities in the text means and chapter of 1cor 12 "want
of strength, weakness, " or want of strength and capacity requisite "peaceful life."
Yes, Paul was greatly abused during his ministry, and some of that abuse could have had long-lasting repercussions. But we do not know what his thorn in the flesh was...
Owie. So true! Paul sure endured a lot in his quest to spread the good news.I think I might feel a little infirm if I had just been stoned and dragged out of the city for dead
It is truly miraculous what he achieved
All the more so considering the opposition he faced on all sides.
Paul did not say the gifts HAVE ceased; he said they will Cease when that which is perfect has come.
Let me ask you, was the word of God perfect only when the 66 books were Canonized or before? That is the argument with Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age
Which 1cor 13:8-10 is the text they use to support that understanding? That, I might add, is an error.
Well, I think the thorn in the flesh was what he asked The Lord to remove, which was the persecution he had to endure constantly as 1cor 12 speaks about. But hey I can be wrongGood answer
But we do not know what his thorn in the flesh was...
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided.
Amen! Scripturally Accurate, According To God's Inspired Words, through
[the cessationist] Paul!!:
Php 2:25 "Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
Php 2:26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
Php 2:27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God Had MERCY On him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow."
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Quite amazing how one can study for years, and then find This Truth, eh?:
2Ti_4:20 "Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."
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1Ti_5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."
In Light Of These Truths, how then is Paul a "continuationist"???
Thus, we still stand for God's Truth:
When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (I) [scroll to bottom of pg 18]
When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (II)
GRACE And Peace...
Well, I think the thorn in the flesh was what he asked The Lord to remove, which was the persecution he had to endure constantly as 1cor 12 speaks about. But hey I can be wrong
Thorn in the flesh/side in the OT was referencing enemies of Israel left in the land. People.
Judges 2:3
Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be [as thorns] in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you
Joshua 23:13
Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides,,,,
Numbers 33:55
But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them [shall be] ... thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
Asking "where else in the bible is the phrase "Thorn in the Flesh/side" used and what did it mean.
Also asking the question "was it a particularly famous passage that most people would have heard of before?"
And then you must conclude that most of his readers who were familiar with these famous verses and how would have heard endless lessons on the mistake about leaving these people in the land, would think Paul was referring to people or a person.
And that is the best interpretation in my opinion due to the hermeneutical rules I just presented.
Are you saying if you don't have the gift of tongues then all you have is dictionaries ect? Because tongues is not the only way to RECEIVE of the Holy Spirit and
or prophesy
What Paul wanted was for the Persecution to stop
And you cherry-picked the chapter
7 and the surpassingness of the revelations
Therefore, that not I should become conceited, was given to me a thorn in flesh, a messenger of Satan that me he might buffet so that not I should become conceited
8 For this, three times the Lord I begged that it might depart from me
9 And He said to me, Suffices you the grace of Me the for power in weakness is perfected Most gladly therefore rather will I boast in the weaknesses of me so that may rest upon me the power of Christ
WAS GIVEN TO ME A THORN IN FLESH
Not my words. PAUL, didn't feel WORTHY as PAUL HAD persecuted the CHRISTIANS and had caused LOTS OF THEIR deaths and imprisonments. PAUL had held Stephens coat when he was stoned. Paul HAD NO PROBLEM with the persecution. GOD delivered them out of all of them.
YOU think that, BUT it doesn't change WHAT IS WRITTEN.
PAUL speaks of a THORN in HIS FLESH, NOT in his spirit.
Cherry pick? I disagree.
Epaphroditus was healed. How did you miss that.
ye had heard that he had been sick.
For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God Had MERCY On him;
That is a HEALING.
I do not deny that. I have never denied that. P
BUT the question I am asking is ARE THE TONGUES the cloven tongue or are the tongues those of the nations?
If you hear what sounds like gibberish, then IT IS NOT A TONGUE of ANY NATION for which an interpreter would understand
NOR is it THE CLOVEN TONGUE because if it was, EVERYONE WOULD UNDERSTAND IT IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, Praise ye the Lord
Do the churches MAKE UP THEIR OWN WAYS or do they do it GODs WAY?
Just as it would not be logical to think that PAUL would have any problem with being DELIVERED from all those that were persecuting him. SEEMS THOSE THORNS were being taken away all the time.
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2 Timothy 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
The context of Paul's throne in the flesh is said in 2cor 12:7-11
Paul says
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Because The Lord said to Paul " My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. "
10 Therefore I(Paul) take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
the description of what Paul prayed to have the Lord take away was
listed: infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake:
Unless you have received the Spirit of TRUTH
To be clear, I don't believe that spiritual gifts were eliminated, just wanted to address the words of God not being what they are and that is
Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psalm 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Just in case you don't read everyones posts because the above reason makes no sense in the light of
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2 Timothy 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
BEING DELIVERED would mean those things WERE taken away, WHILE THE THORN was not.
Unfortunately, the text shows just that. The Book of Acts and all the Prison Epistles. Paul was imprisoned, beaten, stoned, shipwrecked, Bitten by a Viper, taken from The Jews to the Romans then beheaded.
Why is it that some think Jesus was lying about Paul?
Acts 9:15-16
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children[c] of Israel. 16For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
That was in context to Paul. And Paul understood that, as he said in 2cor chapter 12.