Post-death/pre-resurrection

[Jocund]

Just skimming a few comments here, I think there is an important question that needs to be addressed.

When Jesus said that Lazarus is asleep (Jn 11:11), was He equating sleep with death, or that the condition of the "sleep of death" would represent one of multiple possible states during death?

If sleep is a possible state during death and conscious death is another, 1 Cor 15:51's "not all shall sleep" would not necessarily be talking about living people at that point.

Another question is if a person is conscious in their death, would they actually be considered dead at that point?

Something else to consider is that even though a multitude shows up in heaven in Revelation, how would we actually know they are dead in every case? We have ones that are clearly martyrs, but what if some of the people that show up are like John the revelator himself? Present in a spiritual body connected to a living body, shifted in time

 

[Nehemiah6]

When Jesus said that Lazarus is asleep (Jn 11:11), was He equating sleep with death, or that the condition of the "sleep of death" would represent one of multiple possible states during death?

"Sleep" is used as a METAPHOR for death when applied to the saints. Thus "those who sleep in Jesus". It refers to the repose of the body in the grave. But the souls and spirits are very much alive in Heaven. See Acts 7 and 8 for clarification.

 

[RichMan]

If you are referring to the rich man & Lazarus portion, Luke 16 proves his point. Soul sleep isn't a biblical teaching.

I agree with his statement about soul sleeping but I disagree with the first two sentences in the second paragraph.

 

[Jocund]

I agree with his statement about soul sleeping but I disagree with the first two sentences in the second paragraph.

If you are referring to the rich man & Lazarus portion, Luke 16 proves his point. Soul sleep isn't a biblical teaching.

What is the "soul sleep" teaching?

 

[AndrewMorgan]

What is the "soul sleep" teaching?

As I understand it, "soul sleep" refers to the idea that the dead are unconscious and awaiting resurrection and judgement.

 

[RichMan]

As I understand it, "soul sleep" refers to the idea that the dead are unconscious and awaiting resurrection and judgement.

That is my understanding also but it is a wrong teaching and belief according to Scripture.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

That is my understanding also but it is a wrong teaching and belief according to Scripture.

I've heard differing views on this subject. Would you care to elucidate as to

That is my understanding also but it is a wrong teaching and belief according to Scripture.

You may be right - there may be passages of Scripture which indicate what you're saying is true, even obvious ones I'm missing. Maybe, you'd like to point them out. However, how do you square that with seemingly plain biblical statements such as Ecc.9:5, which states "the dead are conscious of nothing" and Luke11, where Lazarus is resurrected?
There's no indication that he was brought back from Heaven or Hell.
Another question: Do you believe different people at different times had different post-death/ pre-resurrection states?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

What is the "soul sleep" teaching?

That after the body dies, the soul either ceases to exist or is in a kind of dormant state & is not awoken until (or recreated at)
The resurrection. Jehovah's Witnesses & SDA's teach versions of soul sleep. It's a cult belief.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

That after the body dies, the soul either ceases to exist or is in a kind of dormant state & is not awoken until (or recreated at)
The resurrection. Jehovah's Witnesses & SDA's teach versions of soul sleep. It's a cult belief.

Whether it's "a cult belief" (one person's cult is another's denomination), shall we address it? Would you like to answer? - Where was Lazarus during the few days after he died and before Jesus resurrected him? I see no indication that he was brought back from Heaven, Hell or anywhere else.
How do you deal with the quote in Ecc9:5 - "The living are conscious that they will die, but the dead are conscious of nothing at all."?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I've heard differing views on this subject. Would you care to elucidate as to



You may be right - there may be passages of Scripture which indicate what you're saying is true, even obvious ones I'm missing. Maybe, you'd like to point them out. However, how do you square that with seemingly plain biblical statements such as Ecc.9:5, which states "the dead are conscious of nothing" and Luke11, where Lazarus is resurrected?
There's no indication that he was brought back from Heaven or Hell.
Another question: Do you believe different people at different times had different post-death/ pre-resurrection states?

The dead know nothing. When a person dies they no longer have any part in this life on earth. The whole book of Ecclesiastes
addresses the futility of life "under the sun". This life we experience while we dwell in our physical bodies. "The dead know nothing" is describing this earthly life, not eternity.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

The dead know nothing. When a person dies they no longer have any part in this life on earth. The whole book of Ecclesiastes
addresses the futility of life "under the sun". This life we experience while we dwell in our physical bodies. "The dead know nothing" is describing this earthly life, not eternity.

First - I'm having trouble with my transmissions. Things sometimes seem to be sent to the wrong place and/ or the wrong person. The post you seem to responding to was a post I wrote the other day, rather than one I would have expected. I'm not au fait with technology.
Re. your Ecc. quote - you seem to be agreeing that the dead "know nothing". Does that not indicate that are simply dead, as in common parlance? I realise that it refers to OT times, which may add another complication, but would you agree that at least then, the dead were unconscious?

 

[AndrewMorgan]

The dead know nothing. When a person dies they no longer have any part in this life on earth. The whole book of Ecclesiastes
addresses the futility of life "under the sun". This life we experience while we dwell in our physical bodies. "The dead know nothing" is describing this earthly life, not eternity.

I'm afraid I have to have a shower now and catch my bus.
I hope to discuss this, and maybe other things, with you later.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

The dead know nothing. When a person dies they no longer have any part in this life on earth. The whole book of Ecclesiastes
addresses the futility of life "under the sun". This life we experience while we dwell in our physical bodies. "The dead know nothing" is describing this earthly life, not eternity.

I'm afraid I have to have a shower now and catch my bus.
I hope to discuss this, and maybe other things, with you later.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

The dead know nothing. When a person dies they no longer have any part in this life on earth. The whole book of Ecclesiastes
addresses the futility of life "under the sun". This life we experience while we dwell in our physical bodies. "The dead know nothing" is describing this earthly life, not eternity.

I'm afraid I have to have a shower now and catch my bus.

First - I'm having trouble with my transmissions. Things sometimes seem to be sent to the wrong place and/ or the wrong person. The post you seem to responding to was a post I wrote the other day, rather than one I would have expected. I'm not au fait with technology.
Re. your Ecc. quote - you seem to be agreeing that the dead "know nothing". Does that not indicate that are simply dead, as in common parlance? I realise that it refers to OT times, which may add another complication, but would you agree that at least then, the dead were unconscious?

I hope to discuss this, and maybe other things, with you later.

First - I'm having trouble with my transmissions. Things sometimes seem to be sent to the wrong place and/ or the wrong person. The post you seem to responding to was a post I wrote the other day, rather than one I would have expected. I'm not au fait with technology.
Re. your Ecc. quote - you seem to be agreeing that the dead "know nothing". Does that not indicate that are simply dead, as in common parlance? I realise that it refers to OT times, which may add another complication, but would you agree that at least then, the dead were unconscious?

Sorry - got to go. Hope to speak with you later.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

First - I'm having trouble with my transmissions. Things sometimes seem to be sent to the wrong place and/ or the wrong person. The post you seem to responding to was a post I wrote the other day, rather than one I would have expected. I'm not au fait with technology.
Re. your Ecc. quote - you seem to be agreeing that the dead "know nothing". Does that not indicate that are simply dead, as in common parlance? I realise that it refers to OT times, which may add another complication, but would you agree that at least then, the dead were unconscious?

OT/NT times are not relevant. It's not complicated at all. A physical body is a body regardless of the date.
The soul is not a physical body regardless of the date.

 

[Jocund]

That after the body dies, the soul either ceases to exist or is in a kind of dormant state & is not awoken until (or recreated at)
The resurrection. Jehovah's Witnesses & SDA's teach versions of soul sleep. It's a cult belief.

I've never heard of the "cease to exist" position. I agree that "ceasing to exist" after death is unbiblical. The concept would be at odds with the resurrections at the end of Revelation.

But the concept of some people being unconscious in death, until the resurrection, seems like a different story. I don't see how this could be ruled out. It's possible that I just don't have the right passages in mind. What leads you to see this as an unbiblical concept?

 

[JohnDB]

Ok
This is a difficult concept to grasp for people bound by time.

Time is a construct created by God. God is inside and outside of time itself.

If moving through time is as easy as walking across the room....there is no time that God is not there. And as when we get to Heaven it is no more waiting for anything.
No standing in line. Ever Present NOW.

Difficult concept to wrap your head around. I am in Heaven, I have been in Heaven and I will be in Heaven, entering the moment when I die.

 

[TheLearner]

I recently posted a question re. the state of people when they die, before Jesus' second coming - ie - have they gone to Heaven or Hell or are they "at sleep", awaiting resurrection.
Whereas I tend toward the latter, I am unsure as to what a careful reading of the whole of the NT would signify, and some posts have already made me question my leanings.
I want now to pose a question about Christ Himself. What was His condition post-death and pre-resurrection? Did he go to Hell for those few days, as many believe? Or was He unconscious?
I'd be interested in others' biblically-based opinions.

The born again are in heaven alive.
The others are in the lower part of afterlife very much alive.

Isaiah 14
Good News Translation
The Return from Exile
14 The Lord will once again be merciful to his people Israel and choose them as his own. He will let them live in their own land again, and foreigners will come and live there with them. 2 Many nations will help the people of Israel return to the land which the Lord gave them, and there the nations will serve Israel as slaves. Those who once captured Israel will now be captured by Israel, and the people of Israel will rule over those who once oppressed them.

The King of Babylon in the World of the Dead
3 The Lord will give the people of Israel relief from their pain and suffering and from the hard work they were forced to do. 4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:

“The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again! 5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers 6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered. 7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy. 8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!

9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”

 

[TheLearner]

Hebrews 9:27
Good News Translation
27 Everyone must die once, and after that be judged by God.

Another theory is that when everyone dies they go to end of time at the resurrection and judgement. The saints returning at the Second Coming contradicts this theory.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I've never heard of the "cease to exist" position. I agree that "ceasing to exist" after death is unbiblical. The concept would be at odds with the resurrections at the end of Revelation.

But the concept of some people being unconscious in death, until the resurrection, seems like a different story. I don't see how this could be ruled out. It's possible that I just don't have the right passages in mind. What leads you to see this as an unbiblical concept?

It's a JW belief (at least those I've spoken to) that people who die pass out of existence immediately.
Conversely The Bible describes the soul going on after a body dies.

Examples from scipture would be verses like Rev 6 & Isaiah 14.

In Rev 6:9-10 John sees the disembodied souls of Christian martyrs. Disembodied as in- they have been slain. They exist
and are conscious enough to cry out to God for vengeance. Those are obvioulsy saved individuals- being in the throne room
of heaven.

Isaiah 14:9-10 has a glimpse into the the grave (sheol) where some of those who where rulers on earth speak.