Essential Christian confessions. "The Augsburg Confessions".

[Athanasius377]

German monarchs were stretched thin with RCC taxes by the time Luther struck out. To build St. Peter’s Basilica the Roman priests laid heavy burdens upon all regions. When Luther was invited to Rome to resolve his theses (he would have been killed) the German monarchs were all to ready to give him asylum. Codifying Luther’s teaching was the means to denounce RCC taxation. But much of the liturgy remained (especially the idea of “priests and laity”). Luther was, after all, a Roman priest. That is why even today, Lutheranism is referred to as Roman Catholic-lite.

Dividing the priests from the laity is demonic. In Christ we are all included in the High Priest: we are royal priests.

Luther taught the priesthood of all believers and denounced clericalism.

German monarchs were stretched thin with RCC taxes by the time Luther struck out. To build St. Peter’s Basilica the Roman priests laid heavy burdens upon all regions. When Luther was invited to Rome to resolve his theses (he would have been killed) the German monarchs were all to ready to give him asylum. Codifying Luther’s teaching was the means to denounce RCC taxation. But much of the liturgy remained (especially the idea of “priests and laity”). Luther was, after all, a Roman priest. That is why even today, Lutheranism is referred to as Roman Catholic-lite.

Dividing the priests from the laity is demonic. In Christ we are all included in the High Priest: we are royal priests.

I’m not sure how you can lay such a charge at the feet of Luther. While it’s true he retained much of the traditional western liturgy Luther was also big on denouncing clericalism in works like the Babylonian captivity of the church and a letter to the German nation. I spent some years in an LCMS church and the clergy were always called pastors not priests. As a matter of fact one of the areas Luther expunged from the liturgy was the notion of a priest offering a sacrifice or being an intercession between man and God. Are you sure you aren’t thinking of Anglo Catholics? They call their clergy priests which is a corruption of the word Presbyter which is an elder.

 

[Athanasius377]

You're talking about predestination.
If you look at part 3 about God imputing the faith that saves. I think you will find that if we have disagreement it is purely semantic unless you are agreeing with the extreme Calvinists

Right. Because it is God alone who saves and not the work of man. See Ephesians 2:8-10.
Ephesians 2:8–10 (ESV): For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Aaron56]

Luther taught the priesthood of all believers and denounced clericalism.


I’m not sure how you can lay such a charge at the feet of Luther. While it’s true he retained much of the traditional western liturgy Luther was also big on denouncing clericalism in works like the Babylonian captivity of the church and a letter to the German nation. I spent some years in an LCMS church and the clergy were always called pastors not priests. As a matter of fact one of the areas Luther expunged from the liturgy was the notion of a priest offering a sacrifice or being an intercession between man and God. Are you sure you aren’t thinking of Anglo Catholics? They call their clergy priests which is a corruption of the word Presbyter which is an elder.

So tell me, can anyone on any Sunday wear the Lutheran vestments (the white robe with gold/green/red/ sash)?

 

[Athanasius377]

So tell me, can anyone on any Sunday wear the Lutheran vestments (the white robe with gold/green/red/ sash)?

You mean the Alb and Stole? If you want. There's nothing in the confessions or bylaws prohibiting or commanding such dress.

 

[Aaron56]

You mean the Alb and Stole? If you want. There's nothing in the confessions or bylaws prohibiting or commanding such dress.

And how often does it happen?
If it looks like and quacks like…

 

[Athanasius377]

And how often does it happen?
If it looks like and quacks like…

You realize the church is an institution with offices such as Elder and Overseer?

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Tt 1:5–9). (2016). Crossway Bibles.

Qualifications for Overseers


3 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.


Qualifications for Deacons


8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (1 Ti 3:1–13). (2016). Crossway Bibles.

 

[Dirtman]

And how often does it happen?
If it looks like and quacks like…

Why do you care what a pastor wears? Ours at our church wears a cope with the alb and stole. I have seen some just wear a black suit with the white collar. Also our elders wear either an alb or cassock and so do the acolytes. They are simply the clothes of a servant. Our confession does bot require any of the traditional attire. Why do you not take our word for what we are doing? It doesnt affect you. We dont have priests. We have pastors and elders. The pastor oversees the whole church the elders care for the assigned duties for the pastor.

 

[Aaron56]

You realize the church is an institution with offices such as Elder and Overseer?

Interesting reasoning. Yet the scriptures speak of an organic body of Christ organized like a multi-generational family.

The idea of “laity” and "institution" came out of the Roman government. Rome organized the church like its government. "Offices" were not grants of grace recognized by apostles but positions of supervision that mirrored the Republic: from Pope/Emperor all the way to member/citizen.

 

[Aaron56]

Why do you care what a pastor wears?

It's not my care that is the question. I am providing the answer to the question: from where did the division of priest and laity arise? It arose in early churches (as a practice to reject) but was codified in the Roman Church.

 

[Dirtman]

The cool thing is a visitor or a new comer can see an elder and know who to go to for what ever needs they have.
I really enjoy our very ceremonial way of having Church.

 

[Dirtman]

It's not my care that is the question. I am providing the answer to the question: from where did the division of priest and laity arise? It arose in early churches (as a practice to reject) but was codified in the Roman Church.

We dont have priests. Again for the; what now third time?. We have pastors and elders who tend the needs of the church.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Personally, I shy away from anything that has to do with Luther. Luther was filled with hate for the Jews and his writings in "The Jews and Their Lies' became a lynchpin for Hitler's propaganda against the Jews. Luther was Hitler's theologian, albeit he lived centuries before Hitler. But Luther's hate lived beyond his lifetime: Anti-semitism: Martin Luther And Adolf Hitler - Free Essay Example - Edubirdie

You can tell a tree by it's fruit and Luther was filled with hate.

Actually Luther was filled by the Holy Spirit with UNDERSTANDING (The just BY HIS FAITH shall live), which caused him to HATE the LIES that the Roman Catholic church was spreading (and is STILL SPREADING), and he wanted to HEAL his beloved Catholic Church, but they wanted to maintain the status quo, and the MIRACLE IS that the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" wasn't able to MURDER him for getting in their way.

Luther's spiritual understanding, and his personal anti-semitism were a LONG WAY from perfect, but his PRIMARY MINISTRY to the REAL CHURCH of Jesus Christ (the restoration of salvation by FAITH) was accurate. God uses imperfect people (since that's all He has).

 

[Dirtman]

One of the grievance Luther had with the Roman church was their priesthood hierarchies.

 

[Dirtman]

Article V. Of the Ministry.
1 That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, 2 the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear 3 the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ’s sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ’s sake.

4 They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works

 

[Aaron56]

We dont have priests. We have pastors... who tend the needs of the church.

Who dress like Roman priests.

Why do you think that is? What is the purpose of the vestments?

 

[Dirtman]

Who dress like Roman priests.

Why do you think that is? What is the purpose of the vestments?

They are teaching tools and the uniform of an office. Elder and Pastor are easily identified by anyone who walks in the church.
Whats the purpose of a suit and tie? The vestments of the ministers of mammon? The CEO and the politician and social elite?
Anything a pastor wears can be met with some kind of argument.

 

[Aaron56]

They are teaching tools and the uniform of an office. Elder and Pastor are easily identified by anyone who walks in the church.
Whats the purpose of a suit and tie? The vestments of the ministers of mammon? The CEO and the politician and social elite?
Anything a pastor wears can be met with some kind of argument.

It's okay. I understand.

 

[awelight]

But these articles dont stand each one on their own. They work together to form a basic explanation of what is believed . see article 2. On original sin and articles 11, 12 18,and 19. Then you will see a more clear picture.

I have said my piece. Nothing more really to say. Take care.

 

[awelight]

CHOOSE YE THIS DAY WHOM "YOU" SHALL SERVE!

WHOMSOEVER BELIEVETH SHALL BE SAVED!

John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and trusts in Him may have eternal life; and I will raise him up on the last day.”


i don't see total depravity anywhere in these Scriptures.
and guess what?
anyone who does CHOOSE to Follow Christ will be filled with the Holy Spirit and become REGENERATED!

Stop being foolish and see the truth.

You quoted John 6:40... but why not the context surrounding it?

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:41 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven.
John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven?
John 6:43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
John6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

"Believeth on Him... Equals .."all that which He hath given Me"... Equals .."except the Father that sent Me draw him..." Equals .."believeth on Him..."

In John 6:44, we have a proof of "depravity". The verse starts with "no man can come to me,..." This is not a great translation because it can lead to misunderstanding. The Greek word translated "can" is the Greek word: δυναται from the root: δύναμαι Which means: "Able" or "be able". The use of the English word: "can", might lead one to think in terms of prohibition. That is, one is prohibited from coming to Christ. This would be an incorrect understanding. The word, as I have shown, speaks to "ability". Therefore depravity. Without Regeneration, (The cause of being drawn), "no man is able to come to Me" In man's Fallen state, he does not possess the "ability" to come to Christ because of his love of sin. Thus, the need for the New Birth. (John 3:1-10).

The greatest proof of "depravity" comes from the Apostle Paul:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is the state of mankind, in it's natural state, after the Fall of Adam. Spiritually dead in trespasses and sin; and will physically experience death, at God's appointed time. Corrupted and decaying.

It is through Regeneration, that we are made spiritually alive again and are able then to commune with God. This restores what was lost in Gen. 3:8. Adam and Eve could no longer walk with God in the garden because their sin had severed the communion with Him and now they feared God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Stop being foolish and see the truth.

You quoted John 6:40... but why not the context surrounding it?

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:41 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven.
John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven?
John 6:43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
John6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

"Believeth on Him... Equals .."all that which He hath given Me"... Equals .."except the Father that sent Me draw him..." Equals .."believeth on Him..."

In John 6:44, we have a proof of "depravity". The verse starts with "no man can come to me,..." This is not a great translation because it can lead to misunderstanding. The Greek word translated "can" is the Greek word: δυναται from the root: δύναμαι Which means: "Able" or "be able". The use of the English word: "can", might lead one to think in terms of prohibition. That is, one is prohibited from coming to Christ. This would be an incorrect understanding. The word, as I have shown, speaks to "ability". Therefore depravity. Without Regeneration, (The cause of being drawn), "no man is able to come to Me" In man's Fallen state, he does not possess the "ability" to come to Christ because of his love of sin. Thus, the need for the New Birth. (John 3:1-10).

The greatest proof of "depravity" comes from the Apostle Paul:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is the state of mankind, in it's natural state, after the Fall of Adam. Spiritually dead in trespasses and sin; and will physically experience death, at God's appointed time. Corrupted and decaying.

It is through Regeneration, that we are made spiritually alive again and are able then to commune with God. This restores what was lost in Gen. 3:8. Adam and Eve could no longer walk with God in the garden because their sin had severed the communion with Him and now they feared God.

He was given all of us.
you just deny the fact that the majority have denied Him.
you have removed Free Will to benefit a Demonic Doctrine.
enjoy!