And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Jackson123]

Let’s try to look at this through the eyes and ears of those Jesus was talking to. Mostly He was talking to Jews except for in some cases He talked to Gentiles.

If they were at all familiar with the Old Testament, the holy writ Scriptures, which surely they had a basic understanding of what the laws were, then when Jesus said “eternal punishment” the idea of eternal conscious torment would have been the furthest thing from their minds.

Eternal conscious torment isn’t even mentioned one time in the Old Testament. In the OT it’s unanimous the fate of the wicked was being destroyed; that’s put to death. That’s how early Christianity and the Jews understood the fate of the wicked if they heard “eternal punishment.”

The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. If you don’t understand the Old Testament the New Testament can’t be properly understood.

now learn this: the OT and NT are in harmony on the fate of the wicked. You’ll do well to understand this.

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

death is not cease to exist
Jesus die for our sins

is that mean Jesus cease to exist?

 

[Jackson123]

I also might add that modern day Jews don’t even believe in eternal conscious torment, nor have they ever, because it isn’t in the Old Testament even a single time. Look it up.

Eternal conscious torment has it’s origin in a few pots. The ECT theology seems to be taken from pagans, Catholics, and Muslims. Which one are you?

how about you?
are you SDA or Jehovah witnesses ?

 

[Jackson123]

Let’s try to look at this through the eyes and ears of those Jesus was talking to. Mostly He was talking to Jews except for in some cases He talked to Gentiles.

If they were at all familiar with the Old Testament, the holy writ Scriptures, which surely they had a basic understanding of what the laws were, then when Jesus said “eternal punishment” the idea of eternal conscious torment would have been the furthest thing from their minds.

Eternal conscious torment isn’t even mentioned one time in the Old Testament. In the OT it’s unanimous the fate of the wicked was being destroyed; that’s put to death. That’s how early Christianity and the Jews understood the fate of the wicked if they heard “eternal punishment.”

The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. If you don’t understand the Old Testament the New Testament can’t be properly understood.

now learn this: the OT and NT are in harmony on the fate of the wicked. You’ll do well to understand this.

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

You state OT harmony with NT

Jesus say goat goes to eternal punishment, that verse enough to say it imply soul never die
that is why in the s5ory about lazarus and the rich man, Jesus say the rich man ask Abraham send Lazarus to hell bring him a drop of water

non exist can not ask anything
non exist not fell thirsty

 

[Runningman]

You state OT harmony with NT

Jesus say goat goes to eternal punishment, that verse enough to say it imply soul never die
that is why in the s5ory about lazarus and the rich man, Jesus say the rich man ask Abraham send Lazarus to hell bring him a drop of water

non exist can not ask anything
non exist not fell thirsty

You’re not understanding what Jesus was talking about is my point. The eternal punishment is being destroyed, death, which is what the rest of the Bible says.

The Bible says the wicked die or are destroyed from Genesis 1 to Matthew 25:45 and beyond. The Bible doesn’t suddenly switch gears and begin an eternal conscious torment doctrine or it would contradict the Bible.

Jesus never even said the words “eternal conscious torment.” He never even taught such a thing.

You’re focusing too much on a single verse while ignoring the rest of the Bible. Don’t do that. Consider everything the Bible is saying, which is what I am do for you since you aren’t.

This all starting to making more sense yet?

 

[Runningman]

death is not cease to exist
Jesus die for our sins

is that mean Jesus cease to exist?

Jackson, Jesus is the Son of God who is an eternal being. Furthermore, we’re talking about unsaved people here. The ultimate fate of the unsaved is death by being destroyed forever.

Psalm 92:6,7
6Senseless people do not know, fools do not understand,
7that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish,
they will be destroyed forever.

 

[brightfame52]

kleronomos

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.

How do you know ? This is speaking about supernatural Spiritual matters that God does.

 

[brightfame52]

Jackson, Jesus is the Son of God who is an eternal being. Furthermore, we’re talking about unsaved people here. The ultimate fate of the unsaved is death by being destroyed forever.

Psalm 92:6,7
6Senseless people do not know, fools do not understand,
7that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish,
they will be destroyed forever.

Were these who shall be destroyed forever, ever Loved by God ? Dis Jesus die for their sins ?

 

[kleronomos]

kleronomos



How do you know ? This is speaking about supernatural Spiritual matters that God does.

Because GOD is NOT the author of confusion. He uses the world around us to explain to us His ways so we understand. That is why He uses the 'locust' to describe an army. That is why He uses nature to EXPLAIN stuff to us.

THE SIMPLICITY of Christ not the SEARCH out what ISN'T to explain what is.

I've stood by many a fire and had to keep putting wood in it to keep it going so I KNOW what happens to wood in a fire. GOD uses that to explain to me what He means.

THAT is how I know what GOD means by smoke and how I SHOULD SEE what He is saying. God isn't trying to TRICK us. There is ANOTHER who is trying to TRICK AND DECEIVE US.

 

[kleronomos]

Were these who shall be destroyed forever, ever Loved by God ? Dis Jesus die for their sins ?

Absolutely. ALL SOULS belong to God. Why do you think God would TORTURE ANYONE FOR EVER? What does that say about those who do see Him in this UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? I am just a human being and I CAN SEE THE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

I am to strive to be more like Him.

If the world decided that the punishment for MURDER was to BEGIN their eternal torture by burning them to to point of unbearable pain BUT NOT allowing them to ever die, would ANYONE GET in line for that saying 'YES, SOUNDS JUST LIKE WHAT GOD WOULD DO"?

IT IS SO EVIL I would think that only EVIL PEOPLE would ever think or promote such a thing. YET HERE WE HAVE 'CALLED' CHRISTIANS DOING JUST THAT???


DID He pay the PRICE for all sins? Yes, Did they repent of their sins to be forgiven? Were they given a choice? OR should God have just created AN ARMY OF ROBOTS without feelings of their own?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Easy one for you:

What is resurrection exactly?

Depends on WHO and WHEN you are talking about.

I'm interested in why "all of a sudden" you're asking about my view of "resurrection" when I've been mentioning it frequently in our discussions.

So, the Bible records a number of occasions where people came back from the dead; the widow woman's son, who Jesus raised up, out of his coffin, an account in the OT where a prophet was thrown into an open grave and the body came to life, plus the many who came out of their graves at the crucifixion and/or ascension of Jesus. Seems there are both accounts. And Lazarus, brother of Mary.

So, did any of these people receive a glorified body? There is NO evidence of that. So what we have with all these accounts is really a "resuscitation" of the body, when God put the soul back into the body. So in all of the accounts, they were still mortal and did die again.

All believers will receive a glorified body at THE resurrection of the saved, per 1 Cor 15:23.

All unbelievers will be raised to life (John 5:29, Acts 24:15) in their mortal bodies to appear before the GWT, only to be cast into the LOF where their physical bodies will DIE AGAIN, otherwise known as the second death in Rev 20:6, 14 and 21:8.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus immortal, but He come to the earth as mortal human and die on the cross, you know what? He was not cease to exist

Neither is He burning in hell for eternity, so what's your point? It seems you have none.

The wages of sin is death. That is explicitly stated in Scripture.

So is the fact that God alone is immortal.

Human souls are not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So then, you once HAD the TRUTH. Too bad you bailed. Deception is an ugly thing.

The saved and the unsaved. I think every evangelical knows this.

So, let's see what you think.

There are two groups of people in this world. Those who believe the lies of the serpent, that’s the group you’re in. Then there are hose who believe God like me.

You're wrong and arrogant. And you still can't find any evidence in the Bible for your claims.

Fundamentally you believe something of the unsaved person has eternal life in hell or the LOF.

I really don't understand why you keep up this total nonsense of yours. I have NEVER said anyone in the LOF has "eternal life". Apparently your stubborness prevents you to comprehend that the soul is conscious and in torment for eternity. The Bible doesn't call that "eternal life", which comes from God and is given ONLY to believers.

So your repeated claim only reveals a very thick denseness on your part.

That’s an inconvenient truth you’re trapped in

I'm not trapped. lol. You are trapped by your own LIES since I never described ECT as "eternal life". Only an idiot would make that kind of claim. The biblical term would be eternal death, but you don't want facts, since your mind is already made up.

and presently cannot wrangle free from. You may try to make all sorts of arguments and distractions, but the core of what you believe stays the same. You’re in spiritual bondage and I’m here to help you get out of it.

You are submerged in false doctrine. You are not able to help anyone. You are in need of serious help. But you don't want it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The eternal punishment is being destroyed, death,

The Bible clearly indicates that eternal punishment is eternal torment. Rev 20:10, the verse that annihilates your opinions.

The Bible says the wicked die or are destroyed from Genesis 1 to Matthew 25:45 and beyond. The Bible doesn’t suddenly switch gears and begin an eternal conscious torment doctrine or it would contradict the Bible.

In every verse, what will be destroyed, or "cease to exist" is the resurrected yet mortal body of the unbeliever. But you just don't want to accept truth.

Jesus never even said the words “eternal conscious torment.” He never even taught such a thing.

Hardly a defense. But that's all you have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because GOD is NOT the author of confusion.

And yet, here you are, all confused and such.

I've stood by many a fire and had to keep putting wood in it to keep it going so I KNOW what happens to wood in a fire. GOD uses that to explain to me what He means.

So you believe that the eternal fires of the LOF come from wood? Is that what you learned standing by a fire?

THAT is how I know what GOD means by smoke and how I SHOULD SEE what He is saying. God isn't trying to TRICK us. There is ANOTHER who is trying to TRICK AND DECEIVE US.

And that is who has been deceiving you into believing an idea that is rather close to that of atheists.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So is the fact that God alone is immortal.

Human souls are not.

What verse teaches that souls are not immortal?

 

[Runningman]

Were these who shall be destroyed forever, ever Loved by God ? Dis Jesus die for their sins ?

Yes God loves everyone in a sense and He takes no delight when they must die.

Ezekiel 33:11
11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

You may wonder, but don’t the righteous die too? Yes, physically, but physical death isn’t what God is talking about here. God is taking about the death of the soul of the wicked.

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Did Jesus die for their sins? Will you elaborate a bit please because I am not sure if you’re asking me if salvation is universal or unconditional. Believe they must access the grace of God through faith in Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[Runningman]

Depends on WHO and WHEN you are talking about.

I'm interested in why "all of a sudden" you're asking about my view of "resurrection" when I've been mentioning it frequently in our discussions.

So, the Bible records a number of occasions where people came back from the dead; the widow woman's son, who Jesus raised up, out of his coffin, an account in the OT where a prophet was thrown into an open grave and the body came to life, plus the many who came out of their graves at the crucifixion and/or ascension of Jesus. Seems there are both accounts. And Lazarus, brother of Mary.

So, did any of these people receive a glorified body? There is NO evidence of that. So what we have with all these accounts is really a "resuscitation" of the body, when God put the soul back into the body. So in all of the accounts, they were still mortal and did die again.

All believers will receive a glorified body at THE resurrection of the saved, per 1 Cor 15:23.

All unbelievers will be raised to life (John 5:29, Acts 24:15) in their mortal bodies to appear before the GWT, only to be cast into the LOF where their physical bodies will DIE AGAIN, otherwise known as the second death in Rev 20:6, 14 and 21:8.

Just getting some bearings on how far off you are. If I understand you correctly, you believe the soul is not immortal so those resurrected from hell are not resurrected with a soul so when their bodies are cast into the lake of fire, where they physically die yet again; however, their soul is not present with them in the lake of fire, meaning there isn’t such a thing as ECT.

That sounds like what you’ve been saying all along. If I have an accurate understanding of what you believe then you’ve just debunked yourself and literally spent the past several dozen pages doing nothing but what essentially amounts to making a lot of noise.

Also, you seem to say they even the saved don’t have souls because it isn’t guaranteed by a verse. Is that accurate? Just a simple yes or no will be clear. I don’t need to sift through a wall of text.

 

[brightfame52]

Because GOD is NOT the author of confusion. He uses the world around us to explain to us His ways so we understand. That is why He uses the 'locust' to describe an army. That is why He uses nature to EXPLAIN stuff to us.

THE SIMPLICITY of Christ not the SEARCH out what ISN'T to explain what is.

I've stood by many a fire and had to keep putting wood in it to keep it going so I KNOW what happens to wood in a fire. GOD uses that to explain to me what He means.

THAT is how I know what GOD means by smoke and how I SHOULD SEE what He is saying. God isn't trying to TRICK us. There is ANOTHER who is trying to TRICK AND DECEIVE US.

Has nothing to do with confusion, Its about the supernatural, Gods works are supernatural, thats not confusion save maybe in your mind.

 

[Runningman]

The Bible clearly indicates that eternal punishment is eternal torment. Rev 20:10, the verse that annihilates your opinions.


In every verse, what will be destroyed, or "cease to exist" is the resurrected yet mortal body of the unbeliever. But you just don't want to accept truth.


Hardly a defense. But that's all you have.

It’s called not adding to or taking away from the Bible. A very essential foundation for anyone who reads the Bible. Try it sometime.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
So then, you once HAD the TRUTH. Too bad you bailed. Deception is an ugly thing.

The saved and the unsaved. I think every evangelical knows this.

So, let's see what you think.

You're wrong and arrogant. And you still can't find any evidence in the Bible for your claims.


I really don't understand why you keep up this total nonsense of yours. I have NEVER said anyone in the LOF has "eternal life". Apparently your stubborness prevents you to comprehend that the soul is conscious and in torment for eternity. The Bible doesn't call that "eternal life", which comes from God and is given ONLY to believers.

So your repeated claim only reveals a very thick denseness on your part.


I'm not trapped. lol. You are trapped by your own LIES since I never described ECT as "eternal life". Only an idiot would make that kind of claim. The biblical term would be eternal death, but you don't want facts, since your mind is already made up.


You are submerged in false doctrine. You are not able to help anyone. You are in need of serious help. But you don't want it.

There are two groups of people in this world. Those who believe the lies of the serpent, that’s the group you’re in. Then there are hose who believe God like me.

Fundamentally you believe something of the unsaved person has eternal life in hell or the LOF. That’s an inconvenient truth you’re trapped in and presently cannot wrangle free from. You may try to make all sorts of arguments and distractions, but the core of what you believe stays the same. You’re in spiritual bondage and I’m here to help you get out of it.