And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

Runningman said:
This parable isn’t a real incident. There’s no such thing as speaking coherently while engulfed in flames in the Bible. There’s no such thing as a resurrection from the dead not being enough to convince people.

Jackson123 said:

He has to. He has no other choice, in order to preserve his views.

And his strange understanding of the account leads to the nonsense that those who have a good life on earth will go to hell and those who have a suffering and poor life on earth will go to heaven. What rot.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
You are quite stubborn. And reading incorrectly. There's NO "cause and effect" in the account.

Go back and read it once again. There is NO 'explation' for WHY he was in torment. Unless you believe that those who experience "the good things in life" will all end up in torments. But that doesn't make sense, does it.

The text does NOT show Abraham explaining WHY the rich man was in torments.

Then Jesus was teaching that salvation and hell are about whether one suffers in life or not. That is nuts.

You just said that Abraham "offered the reason WHY the rich man was in torment", which "was because he had good things in life".

I just quoted what YOU posted above. Do you not remember what you post within the post?

Runningman said:

You don't have the truth, as you demonstrate in all your posts.

Your claim of "cause and effect" leads to the ridiculous idea that those who have "good lives" on earth will go to hell, while those who have "bad lives", being poor and suffering, will go to heaven. Total nonsense.

And, to point out again, you contradicted yourself in your previous post.

Jackson123 · Aug 18, 2022

Runningman said:

What real happen, what happen in hell

kleronomos · Aug 18, 2022

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke "of their torment" ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

WHERE will THE LAMB AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS spend for ever and ever?

A. AT THE LAKE OF FIRE WATCHING THE TORMENT OF SOULS

OR

B. IN THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH IN THE NEW JERUSALEM

Jackson123 · Aug 18, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Runningman said:
This parable isn’t a real incident. There’s no such thing as speaking coherently while engulfed in flames in the Bible. There’s no such thing as a resurrection from the dead not being enough to convince people.

He has to. He has no other choice, in order to preserve his views.

And his strange understanding of the account leads to the nonsense that those who have a good life on earth will go to hell and those who have a suffering and poor life on earth will go to heaven. What rot.

Yep, he may SDA or Jehovah’ s witness

kleronomos · Aug 18, 2022

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Are the souls of men that worshipped the beast either

the devil

the beast or

the false prophet themselves?

Because we are told the smoke of those who worship goes us for ever

where as we are told these will be tormented for ever

Are we rightly dividing when we ASSIGN TO a different GROUP what has been written of another?

ISN'T THAT CALLED COMING TO A CONCLUSION and doesn't that conclusion TWIST what is actually written?

ISNT THAT WHAT SATAN DID IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN WITH THE WORDS OF GOD?

kleronomos · Aug 18, 2022

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son

IN TORMENT FOREVER. Does that include sorrow or pain? IF THERE SHALL BE NO MORE

then how is it possible for a LAKE FILLED WITH JUST THAT to STILL BE?

Either there is or there isn't

THE REST IS JUST TWISTING AND MANS WISDOM or ignorance ON FULL DISPLAY.

IF THE FORMER THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY, AND ALL THINGS ARE MADE NEW, AND THERE WILL BE NO SORROW OR PAIN

THEN HOW CAN THE LAKE OF FIRE BE ANY WHERE GOD IS?

That is how WHAT IS WRITTEN gets changed. Lots of bait and switch and moving past the reality of what we are told like we aren't

followed by in depth reasons for all those things THAT CAN'T BE

BECAUSE OF WHAT IS.

kleronomos · Aug 18, 2022

The first prophecy given tells us Satan is going down.

The last thing to take place before the new heaven and earth is Satan going down.

ALL the rest SHOULD BE CLOSELY STUDIED on how the wisdom of man

MAKES VOID THE WORDS OF GOD

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

This is the second death

will death and hell also be a part of the new heaven and new earth in which GOD MAKES ALL THINGS NEW?

Doesn't it seem as if SOMEONE is trying to keep death and hell around? Around for what? All those in the new heaven and earth will have received eternal life, have been through the cleansing fire, DWELLING with GOD

WHAT PLACE WOULD DEATH AND HELL HAVE THERE? WHY WOULD THEY BE IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD?

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

Jackson123 said:

Yep. And that would explain a lot.

Runningman · Aug 18, 2022

Jackson123 said:

Maybe you and FreeGrace are Catholic. They believe in eternal torment. That would explain a lot.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

kleronomos said:

Because ALL unbelievers will be tormented for ever and ever.

Asking the same question over again?

Please explain better. I don't see different groups.

ISN'T THAT CALLED COMING TO A CONCLUSION and doesn't that conclusion TWIST what is actually written?[/QUOTE]
I would say you have done that by denying what will happen to the GWT judgment group from the beast, FP and satan.

There is NO BREAK in the context. Yet, you are trhing to INSERT a false break that isn't there.

So, conclude what IS there, not what ISN'T there.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

kleronomos said:

The red words obviously refer to the first heaven and earth, which PASSED AWAY according to v.1. Don't you believe v.1?

The "all things NEW" obviously refers to the NH and NE.

You are applying torment forever to the old earth. Why do you believe that the LOF is part of the old earth? That seems to be your conclusion. But the Bible doesn't give you the right to that conclusion.

Also sounds like you just don't believe parts of the Bible. Why is that?

Because the LOF obviously isn't part of the old earth. Some scholars think the LOF is a very distant star. Who cares? Just believe what the Bible says, and quit inserting your opinions.

I have no idea what you are referring to. Define the "what". Is what, or isn't what?

That only applies to the believers who are saved, have eternal life and live with God on the NE. This isn't hard to understand.

You miss the point. God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. So your question is moot. The better question would be:

How can God be where the LOF is? And the answer is: He is omnipresent. He is everywhere.

kleronomos · Aug 18, 2022

Gojira said:

ABSOLUTELY Christendom has been wrong all these centuries. It had already gone off the tracks in the first one, right?

Jesus warns/tells/informs us in Rev 2 and 3, doesn't He? Only 2 out of 7 did He approve of. Even there, WE ARE WARNED about the churches and THE TEACHINGS within them, so chances are WE should be learning WHAT IS WRITTEN ourselves. Traditions of man don't bode well with GOD.

WHAT do we have that NO OTHER GENERATION has had? The opening of the BOOK OF DANIEL and knowledge running to and fro

What is it the two churches Christ approved of had in common? THERE is where the answer is found.

Let's take the REST that they won't be getting. Is it REST as you and I see REST, or do we have to SEEK to find what GOD means by rest so we don't PUT OUR OWN THOUGHTS AND KNOWLEDGE upon His words thereby rendering them void.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

What don't they have REST because they no longer have the LORD NOR any chance of ever being again. Do a study on the word REST and then do a study on the words everlasting and eternity and for ever etc. because MANY OF THEM don't mean what WE THINK they mean.

Why do you think we have the teachings against dispensations? BECAUSE if we were to understand the AGES and how they begin and end then we would understand those words AS GOD USES THEM, but if they can instead keep us confused, then just like everywhere else, WE CAN'T FIND hardly find HIS TRUTH as so we live OUR reality and not HIS.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,

even to the time of the end many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

How many people are teaching AGAINST the INCREASING KNOWLEDGE? kEEP it the same, they didn't do that. WELL THEY WERE IN THE DARK AGES.

WHO was in charge of TEACHING the words of GOD up until a couple hundred years ago, when WE could finally have them in OUR HANDS and read them ourselves?

Remember the mystery of iniquity doeth already work and that was FROM BEFORE the beginning of the 'church'.

And what is the message the pre trib rapture steals? HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL...not the church that overcomes will...

kleronomos · Aug 18, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

IF ONLY THAT WERE WRITTEN.

IF THEY WERE THEN THE HOLY ANGELS AND THE LAMB WOULD BE PRESENT AT THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR EVER AND EVER.

GO SELL IT SOMEWHERE ELSE. I AM NOT BUYING.

kleronomos · Aug 18, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Study to show yourself approved.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

kleronomos said:

Twice. First, at the beginning of the Millennial reign, when he will be locked in a prison for the duration. Second and final time is at the end of the Millennium when he will join the beast and FP.

Please read Rev 20 again, and all of it this time. After satan and obviously his angels are thrown into the LOF in Rev 20:10, the text IMMEDIATELY describes what will happen to all the unbelievers; judgment at the GWT and then they will join the beast, FP, satan and all his fallen angels. There is NO REASON to ASSUME/PRESUME/GUESS that all the unbelievers will get LESS than the previous occupants of the LOF. That is just pure SPECULATION.

Yes, I see it in all your speculative posts.

This is when the resurrected and mortal physical bodies of the unbelievers will DIE AGAIN.

What a ridiculous speculation. Why in the world (or universe) would God include the LOF in the NE? There is NO REASON.

Well, there you go!! God is that One. The Bible SAYS those in the LOF will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So, yeah, there is Someone who IS keeping death and hell around. To be cast into the LOF and then be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The LOF, naturally.

Yep.

They are in the LOF. Your question is weird. There is NO PLACE for death and hell except the LOF. That's it.

They can't get away from His omnipresence. Naturally.

Your questions reveal a serious misunderstanding of a lot of Scripture. Most of this is basic eschatology.

kleronomos · Aug 18, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

Runningman said:

Nice try. I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who died for my sins and freely gives the gift of eternal life to all who believe in Him for it. The RCC believes that they help God in salvation by their lifestyles. That is heretical.

Which are you: SDA or JW? It would be nice to know which distortion leads you.

Runningman · Aug 18, 2022

kleronomos said:

Yes seems to be the case. i have good reason to believe that the widespread confusion on eternal torment on account of the present day church is for two reasons.

Firstly, the New Testament doesn’t always accurately translate the word soul. This is apparent for anyone with an open mind dives into studying how the word soul is used for an hour or two. I won’t be opening that here. People who really want to know can go look.

Secondly, traditions and doctrines of men influenced church thought from an early stage, possibly from pagan influences like Plato, that gave people the false idea that the soul is unconditionally immortal.

Runningman · Aug 18, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Nice try. I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who died for my sins and freely gives the gift of eternal life to all who believe in Him for it.

And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

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