And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Mem]

I love john 10:28. It is the clearest statement in the Bible about eternal security.

After studying all the verses about the resurrection of believers, and their receiving immortal BODIES, and NONE that describe Jesus giving the souls of believers immortality, it isn't difficult to understand that "perish, destroy/etc" only refer to the body of unbelievers, which will happen when they are cast into the LOF.

Unless there is at least 1 verse that clearly teaches that the souls of believers receive immortality at some point, there is no reason to assume that.

And, all the verses about the resurrection of believers is about BODIES becoming immortal. But nothing about the souls.

Adam did not become a soul until God united the body he formed with the breath of life. We lose this breath when we die, though we that believe on Him will remain "with Him" always. Existing even if it is only in God's thoughts, heart is just as good as being 'alive' since He has power over death and lives forever. No dead person is remembering you at the moment since they are not conscious except in the form of a name, that He will never forget, written in His Book of Remembrance. I do want to add that your name remembered includes all of your personality, characteristics, and sensibilities, all your being, your soul, because God knows you intimately.

 

[Magenta]

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,
being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Philippians 1:28 and 3:18-19 teaches that non-believers will be destroyed.
Nevertheless, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.
Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will
know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending side by side for the faith of
the gospel, without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you.
This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears:
Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction...

2 Thessalonians 2:10
“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he
preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell?
No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly
by Jesus; that all men would be judged according to his gospel; that he had declared to people
the whole counsel of God; that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught; and
that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word
"Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Our God is a Consuming Fire

 

[FreeGrace2]

MY FINAL REPLY TO ANYTHING YOU POST
Yes, I have. Yes, I have found them. And yes, I understand you can not.

A gentleman would have provided the evidence, since you haven't yet. Your response is just another dodge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ isn't immortal?

To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16

should settle the matter, but of course, it does not

Why should it since it doesn't say anything about mortal souls or the giving of immortality to souls when the body receives immortality.

It is unbelievable how many Christians deny the truth of 1 Timothy 6:16

I don't deny it. But I KNOW that God gives immortality to the bodies of believers. So He won't be alone when He does that. Didn't that occur to you?

And the verse is about God the Father. So the literal implication is that His Son isn't. "He alone" is pretty clear and specific.

Be careful how to apply verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Adam did not become a soul until God united the body he formed with the breath of life.

True.

We lose this breath when we die, though we that believe on Him will remain "with Him" always.

Our souls.

Existing even if it is only in God's thoughts, heart is just as good as being 'alive' since He has power over death and lives forever.

No the Bible is clear that the believer's soul will be IN heaven during the Tribulation. Rev 6:9

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 10:25~ When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more, but the righteous has an everlasting foundation.

 

[Mem]

True.


Our souls.


No the Bible is clear that the believer's soul will be IN heaven during the Tribulation. Rev 6:9

And what does "be" in heaven actually 'look' like? Rev 6:9 makes an attempt to show us, but it is spoken to us in terms that we can best understand. "Being" in God's thoughts, the object of his concern, certainly qualifies as 'being in heaven,' to me at least.

 

[Runningman]

God does grant immortality to believers and it comes from the tree of life.

Revelation 2:7
7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Genesis 3:22
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Immortality is based on God allowing access to the tree of life in the paradise of God. Adam and Eve lost access to it and died a physical death.

Those in hell or the lake of fire don’t have access to the tree of life and cannot live forever under any circumstances. That’s why the Bible is clear about the death of the wicked being and eternal punishment. They are destroyed forever. Those who don’t believe in Christ will perish. John 3:16 and John 10:28 confirms this.

The only alternative to not being saved is death. Those who are judged by their sins will receive the wages for that sin which is death.

No access to the tree of life means no immortality. That means eternal conscious torment has been debunked.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,
being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Yes, the body.

Galatians 6:8

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction;
the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

This verse is about divine discipline (physical death) contrasted with eternal earned reward. No application to this discussion.

Philippians 1:28 and 3:18-19

teaches that non-believers will be destroyed.

Yes, their resurrected but mortal bodies will DIE AGAIN. That's why the LOF is called the second death. It's about the bodies.

Just as the believer's resurrection is about the bodies. Nothing about souls being given immortality when the body is.

Nevertheless, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.
Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will
know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending side by side for the faith of
the gospel, without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you.
This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

Yes, their bodies will die again.

For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears:

Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction...

Divine discipline. Physical death. 1 Cor 11:30 says the same thing.

2 Thessalonians 2:10

“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

Only unbelievers will die physically twice.

Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he
preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell?
No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly
by Jesus; that all men would be judged according to his gospel; that he had declared to people
the whole counsel of God; that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught; and
that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word
"Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV)

O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Since the theory of annihilation of the soul is predicated on the presumption that souls are NOT immortal UNLESS and UNTIL God gives the soul immortality, why doesn't the Bible teach that?

Because it is pure presumption only.

 

[Mem]

Because it is pure presumption only.

You have presumed the soul is inherently immortal. You must have derived that conclusion from somewhere.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And what does "be" in heaven actually 'look' like? Rev 6:9 makes an attempt to show us, but it is spoken to us in terms that we can best understand.

Correct.

"Being" in God's thoughts, the object of his concern, certainly qualifies as 'being in heaven,' to me at least.

It's clearly more than that. It is the person who is in heaven, talking and asking questions. Not their bodies, but their inner person. I call that the soul. Souls in heaven.

btw, in 1 Thess 4 we read of "the dead in Christ" coming with Him at the Second Advent, and those who are "alive and remain" will join THEM in the air. That's not talking about God's thoughts at all. It is literally talking about the souls of believers coming with Christ to receive their resurrected and immortal and imperishable body to live in forever,

And NOTHING about their souls receiving immortality.

There is much more presumption about souls not being immortal than souls being mortal, since nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of God giving immortality to any souls.

And there sure isn't anything about souls ceasing to exist. That is presumption from the verses that speak of perishing, destruction, etc.

All of which is about the resurrected but mortal body DYING AGAIN, which is why the LOF is called the second death.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 6:23~ The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Proverbs 10:25~ When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more, but the righteous has an everlasting foundation.

Nice try, but the verse does not say that souls will cease to exist. It is referring to bodies. They will be destroyed and perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God does grant immortality to believers and it comes from the tree of life.

Yes, to their bodies, at the resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent. But NOTHING about souls being given immortality. But the Bible is clear that bodies will be given immortality at the resurrection.

 

[Mem]

Correct.


It's clearly more than that. It is the person who is in heaven, talking and asking questions. Not their bodies, but their inner person. I call that the soul. Souls in heaven.

btw, in 1 Thess 4 we read of "the dead in Christ" coming with Him at the Second Advent, and those who are "alive and remain" will join THEM in the air. That's not talking about God's thoughts at all. It is literally talking about the souls of believers coming with Christ to receive their resurrected and immortal and imperishable body to live in forever,

And NOTHING about their souls receiving immortality.

There is much more presumption about souls not being immortal than souls being mortal, since nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of God giving immortality to any souls.

And there sure isn't anything about souls ceasing to exist. That is presumption from the verses that speak of perishing, destruction, etc.

All of which is about the resurrected but mortal body DYING AGAIN, which is why the LOF is called the second death.

What of the issue of double indemnity? If the punishment of death (of the body) has already been carried out, why must it be carried out once more?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Because it is pure presumption only.

You have presumed the soul is inherently immortal.

What I said is that there is MUCH MORE presumption about souls not being inherently immortal than than that they are.

You must have derived that conclusion from somewhere.

I sure did. From the Bible. In all the passages about the resurrection of believers, ALL the emphasis is on their bodies, which are given immortality. There is NOTHING about souls being given immortality.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What of the issue of double indemnity? If the punishment of death (of the body) has already been carried out, why must it be carried out once more?

Not sure what your question is. The Bible calls the LOF the second death, simply because the unbelievers' resurrected body will DIE AGAIN. I can't answer what I think your question is. God didn't tell us. He did tell us that unbelievers will be resurrected and that they will be cast into the second death (LOF) and that they will be destroyed and perish. Obviously speaking of the body.

And, don't forget that the Bible says nothing about God giving immortality to the souls of believers when they receive immortal bodies.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, to their bodies, at the resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent. But NOTHING about souls being given immortality. But the Bible is clear that bodies will be given immortality at the resurrection.

Nonsense.

No living forever under any circumstances without eating from the tree of life. Saved people will be given access to this obviously.

The alternative is being destroyed both body and soul in hell. Clear words of Jesus. God, through the prophet Ezekiel, said the soul who sins shall die. This isn’t talking about a body; if it were it’d mean sinners would drop dead where they stand. This is talking about soul death.

 

[Mem]

FreeGrace2 said:
Because it is pure presumption only.

What I said is that there is MUCH MORE presumption about souls not being inherently immortal than than that they are.

This is subjective.

I sure did. From the Bible. In all the passages about the resurrection of believers, ALL the emphasis is on their bodies, which are given immortality. There is NOTHING about souls being given immortality.

Why so glib? From the Bible. lol, that much I can assume. And again, the rest of your statement is subjective. Anyone can also claim that all those verses are speaking of the complete person, including the soul.

 

[Runningman]

What of the issue of double indemnity? If the punishment of death (of the body) has already been carried out, why must it be carried out once more?

Exactly.