And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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they will be informed at the judgment, hence the ensuing snarling and gnashing of teeth.
You are welcome
Your question harkens back to your repeated assertion that someone is not punished if they do not continually and forever after feel the effects of the punishment. One could also ask, if all things are being made new, where does that leave any room for leftovers from the previous creation to be experiencing ongoing unending punishment? Always you seem to willfully overlook the fact that the second death is punishment, from which there is no coming back from. The second death's effects are ever after. In such a way, God's wrath remains on them. In fact, death is stated as a consequence of sin in a multiplicity of ways from beginning to end of Scripture.You have the cart in front of the horse again. Jesus was speaking to people who were alive and telling them how to get eternal life right then and there in the context. He’s telling those who are listening that if they do not believe in Him that the wrath of God is abiding on them currently in their present situation in the context of John 3:36.
Notice Jesus said absolutely nothing about those who don’t believe in Him living forever with God’s wrath abiding on them. You have eternal torment blinders on 100%.
Lucy-Pevensie said:
If they have lost all perception, how would they know there was no possiblity of resurrection and why would they care?
If they have lost all perception, how would they know there was no possiblity of resurrection and why would they care?
Rather, if they know that when they are going to be cast into the LOF, they will be RELIEVED that they won't experience anything more.
I think there is a leap in reasoning, perhaps leveraged with just a bit of faith
You're projecting... or is conjecture that correct assertion. I won't pretend to be proficient in expressing my thoughts.
You are welcome
You are misunderstanding. Only if their punishment is described as eternal. Which it is, in Matt 25:46.
No one has said that "all" punishment will be eternal. Only the eternal punishment.
Because all of the unbelievers will ALREADY be in their eternal punishment, BEFORE there will be a NH & NE. So it doesn't apply to them.
I have NEVER willfully overlooked that. Of course their second physical death will be part of their punishment.
So?
After a physical body is dead, it does not feel anything, pain or pleasure. Eternal punishment, by definition, means the punishment is EXPERIENCED, which is what annihilationists fail to accept.
If their souls cease to exist, it won't matter. They won't be aware of it or anything. iow, no torment, no punishment, etc.
Physical death is separation of soul from body, per James 2:26. Spiritual death is separation from God.
Spiritual death is NEVER described as ceasing to exist.
Sure. Right. Keep deceiving yourself. God is an Eternal Being. His wrath is clearly eternal, as Dan 12:2 clearly shows, as well as Matt 25:46.
Why would He have to? Just to satisfy your demands? The Bible is clear and you've seen the verses. You have no excuse.
No, I read the Bible, which speaks of eternal torment. However, Jesus taught that the LOF will be "more tolerable" for some than others, so why can't you accept that?
FreeGrace2 said:
And the Bible makes clear that unbelievers will experience punishment eternally. That proves that the soul WILL continue to exist for that reason.
And the Bible makes clear that unbelievers will experience punishment eternally. That proves that the soul WILL continue to exist for that reason.
Doesn't take a leap of faith. Just adequate reading skills with Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46.
You in essence are saying all things are not made new. The old does not pass
away in your view, but remains to experience ongoing endless punishment.
That is your interpretation. Others interpret it to mean the effects of their punishment is everlasting.
One must say that immortality is not the reward for belief and faith in the finished work of Christ if unbelievers
are also given immortality that they may experience the torments of their refusal of God's sovereignty and grace.
God alone is immortal and life ever after is what is promised to believers. The second death is promised to unbelievers.
To say it is an unBiblical view (as many do) is false when death and destruction are
given as a consequence in a multiplicity of ways from beginning to end of Scripture.
Apollumi: Strongs Concordance # 622
This is a specious argument. A person put to death has had punishment meted out to them. This punishment
is not made null and void because the person no longer exists to feel the effects of the punishment
Likewise saying the unbeliever gets what they want if they simply cease to exist.
The idea is itself contradictory to what Scripture states, and yet you promote it.
Just as some say death is nothing to fear, since this too contradicts what Scripture articulates.
Or death is not punishment. This travels deep into irrationality.
FreeGrace2 said:
Because all of the unbelievers will ALREADY be in their eternal punishment, BEFORE there will be a NH & NE. So it doesn't apply to them.
OK, let's ponder that statement. Since I believe that the unbelievers will be IN their eternal punishment phase, you are claiming that I believe that all the unbelievers, including Satan and ALL the fallen angels, "will be made new". Really?
Do YOU believe that all unbelievers and all fallen angels will be made new?
No, of course you wouldn't think that. You think all unbelievers and all fallen angels will no longer exist and therefore won't be experiencing anything.
But, hey, what about the beast and FP and Satan and all his angels? The Bible is CLEAR that they WILL experience an eternal torment.
So, how do you get around that rather unpleasant fact?
Because all of the unbelievers will ALREADY be in their eternal punishment, BEFORE there will be a NH & NE. So it doesn't apply to them.
OK, let's ponder that statement. Since I believe that the unbelievers will be IN their eternal punishment phase, you are claiming that I believe that all the unbelievers, including Satan and ALL the fallen angels, "will be made new". Really?
Do YOU believe that all unbelievers and all fallen angels will be made new?
No, of course you wouldn't think that. You think all unbelievers and all fallen angels will no longer exist and therefore won't be experiencing anything.
But, hey, what about the beast and FP and Satan and all his angels? The Bible is CLEAR that they WILL experience an eternal torment.
So, how do you get around that rather unpleasant fact?
I reject your interpretation of the verse about the "old passing away". The verse refers to our experiences during this life on earth, obviously.
FreeGrace2 said:
After a physical body is dead, it does not feel anything, pain or pleasure. Eternal punishment, by
definition, means the punishment is EXPERIENCED, which is what annihilationists fail to accept.
Ask any medical sciencist about whether dead bodies experience anything.
After a physical body is dead, it does not feel anything, pain or pleasure. Eternal punishment, by
definition, means the punishment is EXPERIENCED, which is what annihilationists fail to accept.
Ask any medical sciencist about whether dead bodies experience anything.
To even have an "effect", one MUST experience it. I can hardly believe I have to say any of this. It is beyond obvious.
They are given ultimate and eternal death, which spiritually means total separation from God.
Quit forgetting that the Bible speaks of eternal shame and contempt and punishment of unbelievers. I don't care what you call it. They will be punished consciously forever.
Destruction is always about the body. Just read the Bible.
FreeGrace2 said:
If their souls cease to exist, it won't matter. They won't be aware of it or anything. iow, no torment, no punishment, etc.
Bingo.
If their souls cease to exist, it won't matter. They won't be aware of it or anything. iow, no torment, no punishment, etc.
Of course you would have to say this, to preserve your own opinion.
And all unbelievers WILL most certainly physically die again. That's what destruction and perish refer to.
You just "got" yourself. Explain HOW a non-existent former person can "feel the effectrs of the punishment"?This punishment is not made null and void because the person no longer exists to feel the effects of the punishment
Then please explain what a person will experience if they cease to exist. I can't imagine.
Rather, the opposite is true.
Because unbelievers will suffer eternal shame, contempt (self) and punishment, ALL OF WHICH is experienced.
You simply fail to discern the physical resurrected and mortal body with the eternal punishment of the soul. btw, Dan 12:2 speaks clearly of unbelievers having eternal shame and self contempt. That isn't something the body ever experiences. Only the mind, the soul, the heart.
Bingo.
Revelation 21:1-4 BSB
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”
2 Peter 3:13 BSB
13But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
The Bible is remarkably clear on this particular subject. There will be no more pain or crying anywhere in the New Heavens and New Earth. No torment or weeping and wailing. Only righteousness.
ensuing ; occurring afterward as a result: i.e. a result of the judgment of having to endure the punishment
Script should be studied with sufficient interpretation skills rather than the typical "see spot run" sort of proficiency