And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Runningman]

Why don't you complain to Jesus Himself? He is the One who taught that "on that day", referring to the GWT judgment, the sentence will be "more tolerable" for some than for others. That is what He said.

Words have meaning. More tolerable doesn’t infer eternal torment.

Interesting. Here, you "claim" to know what I have brought to the table. But then you IGNORE all the verses I have brought. That makes you dishonest and a fraud.

You just have sour grapes because you’re frustrated about being unable to prove your point using the Bible.

Dan 12:2 speaks of eternal shame and contempt for unbelievers.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

As I’ve already proved in a different comment that you read and responded to, the ones who will experience that are those who are still alive. Read Isaiah 66.

Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Punishment ISN'T punishment IF it isn't being experienced, regardless of what you opine.

In the real world a punishment is a death penalty. The Bible says the unsaved perish. Perish means utter destruction. That’s completely destroyed. There is no other way to understand this except for total death. There’s nothing left for the dead person to experience.

This is just another fantasy of yours. There is no "end" for either unbeliever or believer.

Yet you can’t quote a single verse that says to the contrary that the unsaved live forever.

As Dan 12:2 says, the unbelievers will experience eternal shame and contempt, and the believers will have eternal life.

Daniel 12:2 doesn’t say the unbeliever will be the ones experiencing anything. Now you’re in a corner with me standing there with an open Bible quoting scripture at you.

Isaiah 66:22-24
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

So you are just so confused.

projection.

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

I personally don’t believe God makes mistakes.

OK, so why annihilate a sinner from receiving his just recompense?

 

[Runningman]

OK, so why annihilate a sinner from receiving his just recompense?

Because that isn’t God’s mistake. Do you blame God when you sin?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
No rest day or night for one day and night? It doesn’t have the world eternal in the there so that isn’t an eternal torment verse. Any others?

Does God make mistake by creating a creature that is made in His image and likeness to annihilate him later because He didn’t like the outcome of his behavior?

Rm is just being dishonest, like always.

Rev 14
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Context here is about those those who take the mark of the beast. We find "torment with fire" in v.10. Then, in v.11 we read that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.

To assume a 24 hour period here is ridiculous. If their torment ceases, the smoke from that torment will also cease, BUT the Bible says the smoke from that torment rises forever and ever, which is the same words in Rev 20:10.

He has no excuse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then all you need to do is show that death isn’t death

Again, James explained physical death this way, in 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

If you don't see separation here between body and spirit, you just don't want to. When the spirit leaves the body, the body is DEAD.

Separation is the issue. Medical science is able to sustain physiological life after the EEG is flat (soul has left the body).

and something of the unsaved person lingers on forever in eternal conscious torment.

You've been given the pertinent verses plenty of times, so you have no excuse. Dan 12:2 says unbelievers will experience eternal shame and contempt. Matt 25:46 says unbelievers will experience eternal punishment. That is the proof that you deny.

I don’t see that in my Bible.

Of course not. You don't want to see the facts.

I’ve pored over the Bible on this subject, researched online, read commentaries, and discussed it.

Your bias has blinded you.

If the Bible says this, this should be a very easy undertaking for anyone. Can you even comprehend that the modern church is totally wrong on this point?

I've NEVER quoted or acknowledged the "modern church". I have only quoted the Bible, which you keep rejecting.

People say many things, but the Bible doesn’t outright say that all of the unsaved people live forever in any sense or are conscious in any sense after death if they go to hell.

Sure it does. Punishment, shame and contempt are EXPERIENCES and the Bible describes them as eternal.

Are you so dense that you can't connect these very obvious dots?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why don't you complain to Jesus Himself? He is the One who taught that "on that day", referring to the GWT judgment, the sentence will be "more tolerable" for some than for others. That is what He said.

Words have meaning. More tolerable doesn’t infer eternal torment.

OK, so you didn't read the verses IN context. Why didn't you? Jesus was talking about what happens after the GWT judgment.

What ELSE would His comment about "tolerable" refer to, if not the LOF? Please answer. And I explained how the rich man in Hades was "in torment" (Jesus' words) but was able to carry on a conversation.

You just have sour grapes because you’re frustrated about being unable to prove your point using the Bible.

Wrong again. You are just so stubborn that you are flatly rejecting what the Bible says clearly.

As I’ve already proved in a different comment that you read and responded to, the ones who will experience that are those who are still alive. Read Isaiah 66.

So they don't have any relevance to those in the LOF.

In the real world a punishment is a death penalty. The Bible says the unsaved perish. Perish means utter destruction.

Nope. The word "perish" is MOSTLY referring to physical death. And I've repeatedly shown that the LOF is also called the SECOND death, which is a reference to the resurrected body of unbelievers DYING AGAIN after the GWT judgment. I don't care if you reject this, the Bible says it and it is true. So "perish" can easily refer to the physical body dying again. You keep failing to make your case from the Bible.

All you've done is demonstrate your fixation on physical death and apparent inability to grasp that there are NO words in the Bible that mean 'cease to exist'. That's just something you have made up.

That’s completely destroyed.

Right. The physical body, after the GWT judgment and being thrown into the LOF.

There is no other way to understand this except for total death.

Death of a body.

There’s nothing left for the dead person to experience.

What you also continue to miss is that the Bible is clear that AFTER physical death, the soul continues to experience. Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man prove this. Rev 6:9 proves this as well.
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

So, we see the souls of martyrs in heaven calling out in a loud voice and asking for vengeance for their deaths. They are given a white robe and told to wait a little longer.

All these things prove that after physical death, the soul of people continue to experience time, events, etc.

Yet you can’t quote a single verse that says to the contrary that the unsaved live forever.

Only Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10, which applies to everyone who is cast into the LOF. That's 3.

Daniel 12:2 doesn’t say the unbeliever will be the ones experiencing anything.

Are you actually trying to prove how dense you are? Seriously?

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Black words refer to the two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Also stated in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Also also John 5:28,29 show 2 resurrections.

The red words refer to the saved; they awake (their bodies) to everlasting life.
The blue words refer to the unsaved: they awake to shame and everlasting contempt.

However, since you don't think the blue words refer to unbelievers, just WHO do you think the blue words refer to?

Now you’re in a corner with me standing there with an open Bible quoting scripture at you.

Nothing you have quoted has proven anything of which you claim.

Isaiah 66:22-24
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

What does this have to do with unbelievers ceasing to exist?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I do not forget that man is spirit, soul and body. Even if you are right and the body and soul cease to exist, there is no statement that the spirit of man ceases to exist after death.

It's an important point you make. Cessation of the human spirit or soul-sleep after physical death isn't a Biblical teaching.

Job 26 (NASB)

5 “The departed spirits are made to tremble
Under the waters and their inhabitants.

6 Sheol is naked before Him,
And Abaddon has no covering.

Ecc 12 (NASB)
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is shattered
and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Isa 14 (NASB)

9 Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come;
It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

10 They will all respond and say to you,
‘Even you have become weak as we,
You have become like us.

11 Your pride and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you

And worms are your covering.’


Luke 16 (NASB)

22 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died
and was buried. 23 And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms

 

[Runningman]

It's an important point you make. Cessation of the human spirit or soul-sleep after physical death isn't a Biblical teaching.

Job 26 (NASB)

5 “The departed spirits are made to tremble
Under the waters and their inhabitants.

6 Sheol is naked before Him,
And Abaddon has no covering.

Ecc 12 (NASB)
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is shattered
and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Isa 14 (NASB)

9 Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come;
It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

10 They will all respond and say to you,
‘Even you have become weak as we,
You have become like us.

11 Your pride and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you

And worms are your covering.’


Luke 16 (NASB)

22 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died
and was buried. 23 And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms

Seems you haven’t studied the Bible much.

Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

1 Thess. 4:13,14 KJV
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why don't you complain to Jesus Himself? He is the One who taught that "on that day", referring to the GWT judgment, the sentence will be "more tolerable" for some than for others. That is what He said.

OK, so you didn't read the verses IN context. Why didn't you? Jesus was talking about what happens after the GWT judgment.

What ELSE would His comment about "tolerable" refer to, if not the LOF? Please answer. And I explained how the rich man in Hades was "in torment" (Jesus' words) but was able to carry on a conversation.


Wrong again. You are just so stubborn that you are flatly rejecting what the Bible says clearly.


So they don't have any relevance to those in the LOF.


Nope. The word "perish" is MOSTLY referring to physical death. And I've repeatedly shown that the LOF is also called the SECOND death, which is a reference to the resurrected body of unbelievers DYING AGAIN after the GWT judgment. I don't care if you reject this, the Bible says it and it is true. So "perish" can easily refer to the physical body dying again. You keep failing to make your case from the Bible.

All you've done is demonstrate your fixation on physical death and apparent inability to grasp that there are NO words in the Bible that mean 'cease to exist'. That's just something you have made up.


Right. The physical body, after the GWT judgment and being thrown into the LOF.


Death of a body.


What you also continue to miss is that the Bible is clear that AFTER physical death, the soul continues to experience. Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man prove this. Rev 6:9 proves this as well.
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

So, we see the souls of martyrs in heaven calling out in a loud voice and asking for vengeance for their deaths. They are given a white robe and told to wait a little longer.

All these things prove that after physical death, the soul of people continue to experience time, events, etc.


Only Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10, which applies to everyone who is cast into the LOF. That's 3.


Are you actually trying to prove how dense you are? Seriously?

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Black words refer to the two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Also stated in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Also also John 5:28,29 show 2 resurrections.

The red words refer to the saved; they awake (their bodies) to everlasting life.
The blue words refer to the unsaved: they awake to shame and everlasting contempt.

However, since you don't think the blue words refer to unbelievers, just WHO do you think the blue words refer to?


Nothing you have quoted has proven anything of which you claim.


What does this have to do with unbelievers ceasing to exist?

Nothing you’re saying makes sense in a Biblical context.

 

[Jackson123]

This answer is going to have to come from God through prayer. I have given what I know. Now, it's up to you and the Lord as I don't know any other way to say it.

The answer is come from the Word of God in Matt 25:46

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Seems you haven’t studied the Bible much.

Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

1 Thess. 4:13,14 KJV
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I'm quite familiar with those two verses . You are growing increasingly arrogant.

 

[Runningman]

I'm quite familiar with those two verses . You are growing increasingly arrogant.

Arrogance by your standard is quoting verses that refute you. You’ve put up a wall against the Bible. I wonder what your true intentions are.

 

[Runningman]

The answer is come from the Word of God in Matt 25:46

Great we agree. The eternal punishment is death. There’s nothing else that says otherwise. For many pages you’ve just quoted Matt 25:46 so that’s your stubborn pride.

 

[Runningman]

I'm quite familiar with those two verses . You are growing increasingly arrogant.

ahh i see now. I sent you a message to your inbox saying sorry and that has unsettled you.

Proverbs 25:21,22
21If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
22For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

While not exactly the same thing as Proverbs, I gave you kindness. You’ve turned and disrespected the Bible and me since then.

I give you the word of God and that really makes you upset. I see it as evidenced by your attacks against my person.

 

[Runningman]

The answer is come from the Word of God in Matt 25:46

What is the eternal punishment?

 

[DavidTree]

What about those who were raised in a place where they never heard the gospel? No choice there, right?

Would I be correct in saying, you believe that the souls God created have stronger 'fire proofing' than the CONSUMING FIRE IS ABLE TO CONSUME?

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5But in accordance with your hardness and your [a]impenitent heart you are https://biblehub.com/nkjv/romans/2.htm#footnotestreasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.


12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel
Romans ch2

 

[Jackson123]

Great we agree. The eternal punishment is death. There’s nothing else that says otherwise. For many pages you’ve just quoted Matt 25:46 so that’s your stubborn pride.

Did you check online definition of punishment

I do you a favor to quote for you
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
"crime demands just punishment"

what is infliction
quote
the action of inflicting something unpleasant or painful on someone or something.
"the repeated infliction of pain"

so eternal punishment is to make one eternally pain

how you make one pain if he death?

 

[Runningman]

Did you check online definition of punishment

I do you a favor to quote for you
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
"crime demands just punishment"

what is infliction
quote
the action of inflicting something unpleasant or painful on someone or something.
"the repeated infliction of pain"

so eternal punishment is to make one eternally pain

how you make one pain if he death?

The first definition i saw when I googled “definition of death” is:

“the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.”

I think your source is not accurate. You are giving the definition for the word punishment.

I copied then pasted what you said and the word that came up is punishment.

Words have meaning my friend. You can’t just change the Biblical words. We have a duty to be true to the Bible.

 

[Jackson123]

The first definition i saw when I googled “definition of death” is:

“the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.”

I think your source is not accurate. You are giving the definition for the word punishment.

I copied then pasted what you said and the word that came up is punishment.

Words have meaning my friend. You can’t just change the Biblical words. We have a duty to be true to the Bible.

You Google definition of punishment but you may forget the Lord put the word eternal before the word punishment mean Constance punishment forever

 

[kleronomos]

You say that death is not what I say it is, but you don't say what you believe it to be. And yes, if I disagree with someone irl, I will say so. "Death is death" is not an answer.

Death of the body - a carcass that goes back to dust

Dead Spiritually - not received the gift of salvation

Death of both body and soul - cease to exist - turned into nothing more than SMOKE that ascends

The first death is of the earthen vessel/body where blood ceases to flow and keep one alive
The 2nd death is of the 'spiritual body along with the soul which causes one to cease to exist.

The opposite of LIFE.

No longer breathing, thinking, feeling

The cessation of life