Dispensationalism...

[Ethan1942]

Excuse me, But Ez 37 says these two nations, which were scattered throughout the world because of sin will come together.

They were not split until Babylon, even then, at its earliest. They were not removed. Judah was not completly scattered until AD 7o

So Ezek 37 is something which must occure after the events of 70 AD


The fullness of the gentiles speaks of the time Paul was in. They were under roman rule. Gentiles have been in control of Jerusalem since Babylon first took over and destroyed it. They will continue until th elamb returns, At which time, israel will repent. And ALL israel will be saved.


Gal 3 speaks of salvation coming through the seed. It speaks NOTHING of the land promise.


Yes they recieved it completely. This does not negate the promise. The promise is to be forever. If not. There would be no need of a remnant/


Heb 11 again speaks of salvation

The problem with preterists or ammillenialism or whatever you want to call it is they try to revert the physical promise to the salvation promise

this is a mistake

On Romans 11 -
But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

 

[Ethan1942]

John Gill, the 18th century Baptist was premillennial, but NOT a dispensationalist, which heresy did not exist then. Here is part of what he wrote about the millennium -

"This glorious and visible kingdom of Christ, will not take place till after the resurrection of the just, and the renovation of the world {3}. As soon as Christ personally appears, the dead in him will rise first; this is the first resurrection, which they that have a part in, shall reign with Christ a thousand years; as appears from the above place in the Revelation referred unto. These "children of the resurrection", as Christ calls them, #Lu 20:35,36 and who will be worthy of "that world", the new world, in which Christ and they will reign, will be like the angels, die no more; nor will they eat and drink, in a corporal sense; nor marry and be given in marriage; carnal appetites will not be indulged; nor carnal pleasures enjoyed: in this state, nothing but pure, refined, spiritual pleasures, will be had, suited to the bodies and souls of men, united in the resurrection state. Our Lord, indeed, speaks of his disciples eating and drinking at his table, in his kingdom; and of his drinking new wine in his Father's kingdom, which is the same, #Lu 22:30 Mt 26:29 but then all this is to be understood of divine repasts, of spiritual joys and pleasures, they shall then partake of. The Jews, it seems, had very carnal notions of the kingdom of God, of a great affluence of meats and drinks in it, and of rich and delicious living; hence a certain person said, "Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God!" #Lu 14:15 meaning, that shall live deliciously there. And such gross and carnal conceptions, some that have bore the Christian name, have entertained of the millennium, as well ancient {4} as modern writers, at least, as represented by their adversaries; and therefore it has been objected to them, as if their notion savoured more of a Turkish paradise, than of a kingdom of Christ; and which has brought disgrace upon the doctrine of the kingdom, and given disgust to pious and spiritual minds; as it did to Austin {5}, who had some light into it, and owned, that could it be restrained to spiritual delights and pleasures, it might be allowed: but now the manner in which I conceive it, clears it from such absurdities, and represents it as quite unclogged, and free from such an objection. All the prophesies of temporal blessings in the latter day, as length of life, a numerous offspring of the people of God, plenty of corporal food, an affluence of wealth and riches, will have their accomplishment in the spiritual reign, or latter day glory; when there will be such au effusion of the Spirit of God, as will be a counterbalance to such earthly enjoyments, that they will not do the hurt they would in the present circumstances of things; and even then, when the influences of the Spirit shall go off, and be withdrawn, that state will gradually sink into lukewarmness, pride, self-conceit, and carnality, #Re 3:15,16. But nothing of this kind will appear in the millennium."
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk7-ch8.html

 

[chess-player]

Lev 26

Study it, Study what happens AFTER the temple is removed. When the nations is scattered. And when their land is in possession of the gentiles. And they repent.

What does God promise

You are not making any sense.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You are not making any sense.

Did you read?

happened in 70 Ad

27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You[g] shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36 ‘And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies;
the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee;
they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues;
and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And those of you who are left shall [j]waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;
also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.

if they repent


40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

some of this is in error

how much more will these natural branches(natural Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree((Christ) Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(natural Jews) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob (natural Jews)”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

ezek 37 shows when this will take place and tells us Isreal will end her sin when God brings them together as one

 

[chess-player]

You deal in half truths

We do not deny that Israel has stumbled ... but they have not fallen
we do not deny that blindness in part has come upon them ... until the fulness of the Gentiles are brought in
we do not deny that at present they are rejected ... but they will be accepted
we do not deny that at present they are cast away ... but they will attain to the fulness

As for when these things will be Jesus said "the times and seasons for these things are in the Father's hands" You argue against your own doctrines. You talk as though they can save themselves or do something that will save them.

You argue against predestination, salvation by grace alone, election. These fundamental doctrines of our holy faith you deny. For you imply that God chose them because they were righteous when we know Jacob was preferred to Esau before either had done anything good or evil ... before they rejected Christ.

You are flaunting yourself against them. Stop doing that.

The fullness of the gentiles took place when the temple was destroyed, after that, there were no more Gentiles because they were no more Jews connected to God via the Law of Moses. The only way they could be accepted again was to bow their knee to Christ, and thus be incorporated into the body of the Messiah. God has always had one people only: A people of faith. Today, there is no difference.

If you want to speak about pre-destination, think about Christ who was predestined to be the Savior of the world. The Jews were also predestined to be in Christ, but because of the stubbornness of their hearts, they refused. Jesus is still the only way (Jn 14:6).

You should read your Bible slowly and without any predetermined assumptions. I have.

Lastly, I deny nothing, except the false teachings of dispensationalism.

 

[chess-player]

Did you read?

happened in 70 Ad

27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You[g] shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36 ‘And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies;
the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee;
they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues;
and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And those of you who are left shall [j]waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;
also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.

if they repent


40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

Please quote the book to verify what you are saying. Just in case, the OT cannot bypass the new and ignore it. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the old which ends with Christ. Scriptures for you to meditate: Luke 24:25-27, 44-45, and John 5:39-40.

What do these scriptures say?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Please quote the book to verify what you are saying. Just in case, the OT cannot bypass the new and ignore it. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the old which ends with Christ. Scriptures for you to meditate: Luke 24:25-27, 44-45, and John 5:39-40.

What do these scriptures say?

Lev 26, I already told you what passage. I asked you to read it. And then I posted it.

The OT does not by pass the NT The NT is the fulfillment of The OT. Including Israel being restored after great tribulation. Because they repented.

Gods promises do not stop.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The fullness of the gentiles took place when the temple was destroyed, after that, there were no more Gentiles because they were no more Jews connected to God via the Law of Moses. The only way they could be accepted again was to bow their knee to Christ, and thus be incorporated into the body of the Messiah. God has always had one people only: A people of faith. Today, there is no difference.

If you want to speak about pre-destination, think about Christ who was predestined to be the Savior of the world. The Jews were also predestined to be in Christ, but because of the stubbornness of their hearts, they refused. Jesus is still the only way (Jn 14:6).

You should read your Bible slowly and without any predetermined assumptions. I have.

Lastly, I deny nothing, except the false teachings of dispensationalism.

This is false. The fullness of the gentiles will not come until the last empire is detroyed. By the return of Christ (dan 2 and 7)

 

[kaylagrl]

Here is another reason i ditched dispensationalism .
From the parable of the weeds
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Here is the Scofield note
Matthew 13:30
1 Gather
The gathering of the tares into bundles for burning does not imply immediate judgment. At the end of this age the tares are set apart for burning, but first the wheat is gathered into the barn.;

To my understanding/belief Scofield already got it wrong stating not once but through out his notes the Abraham covenant is unconditional . I choose not to believe much of what he says so i search things out.

He is often as subtil as satan in the garden.

Well sister I'm just gonna be as honest as I can here. Scofield, Smofield, dispys, tulips, all this meant little or nothing to me before I came to CC. I have I guess a working knowledge of some of it now. But we don't have to turn to anyones opinion on the subject. We know from the Word that 1. covenants were made by dividing animals 2. both parties would pass between the animals 3.a covenant would be made. In the case of Abe we know 1. the animals were halved 2. God put Abe into a deep sleep. 3. God passed through the halved animals alone making it an unconditional covenant that God promised to uphold. We don't even have to ask old Smofield his opinion, it's right there in black and white.

 

[chess-player]

This is false. The fullness of the gentiles will not come until the last empire is detroyed. By the return of Christ (dan 2 and 7)

Since there are no more Jews in covenant with God, there cannot be its counterpart (Gentiles). This has been a dead issue for 2,000 years since the Lord died on the cross, rose again, ascended to the throne, and sent the Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no need for you to continue to push something that is dead when the Holy Spirit is the promise to everyone who believes in the Lord.

Are you sure you are a believer who has the Spirit of God as a downpayment of your salvation? (Eph 1:13-14).

Ephesians 2:18-22 (LSB) "For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, is growing into a holy sanctuary in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."

 

[chess-player]

Lev 26, I already told you what passage. I asked you to read it. And then I posted it.

The OT does not by pass the NT The NT is the fulfillment of The OT. Including Israel being restored after great tribulation. Because they repented.

Gods promises do not stop.

God's promises were fulfilled through Jesus Christ on the cross. Stop looking to the past for answers. Jesus is God's final word for all nations, including your pet, Israel.

 

[Beckie]

Well sister I'm just gonna be as honest as I can here. Scofield, Smofield, dispys, tulips, all this meant little or nothing to me before I came to CC. I have I guess a working knowledge of some of it now. But we don't have to turn to anyones opinion on the subject. We know from the Word that 1. covenants were made by dividing animals 2. both parties would pass between the animals 3.a covenant would be made. In the case of Abe we know 1. the animals were halved 2. God put Abe into a deep sleep. 3. God passed through the halved animals alone making it an unconditional covenant that God promised to uphold. We don't even have to ask old Smofield his opinion, it's right there in black and white.

Scofield was one of the fathers of today's dispensationalism. For a while we can still speak our minds in the good ol USA , Different opinions make forums interesting.

 

[Jocund]

My opinion Sure Doesn't Count For Much, but obedience To God's
Bible study Rules [sound exegesis?] sure does.

GRACE And Peace...

Sound exegesis matters.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is false. The fullness of the gentiles will not come until the last empire is detroyed. By the return of Christ (dan 2 and 7)

This is completely false. The fulness of the Gentiles applies to the Church, which is clear from the context in Romans 11. When the requisite number of Gentiles has been gathered into the Church, it will be raptured. This will be long before Christ returns to destroy all the kingdoms of the world and establish the Kingdom of God in earth (Dan 7).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Scofield was one of the fathers of today's dispensationalism.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Scofield did an excellent job in his Scofield Reference Bible (the original edition) and it would do all Christians much good to delve into this Bible. One does not have to agree with all his conclusion, but I would say that about 98% of his comments are sound and biblical.

There are a huge number of Scofield bashers because they hate Dispensationalism. But the fact of the matter is that it is a reasonable and sound method of interpretation, since the plain literal meaning of Scripture is always there (unless metaphors are evident). Some even love to slander Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, Walvoord, etc. because ad hominem attacks are a substitute to sound interpretation.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (which was regarded as imminent by the apostolic churches) was first revealed by Christ in John 14:1-3. Darby etc simply dug a little deeper and discovered that this is true.

 

[Evmur]

Since there are no more Jews in covenant with God, there cannot be its counterpart (Gentiles). This has been a dead issue for 2,000 years since the Lord died on the cross, rose again, ascended to the throne, and sent the Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no need for you to continue to push something that is dead when the Holy Spirit is the promise to everyone who believes in the Lord.

Are you sure you are a believer who has the Spirit of God as a downpayment of your salvation? (Eph 1:13-14).

Ephesians 2:18-22 (LSB) "For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, is growing into a holy sanctuary in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."

Actually you reject the commonwealth of which you claim fellow citizenship, the Gentiles are offered nothing but a gracious inclusion into somebody else's commonwealth. Everything belongs to the Jews.

Amillennialism is anti-semite. It is where anti semitism began. Among the Catholics and carried over into the reformation.

Amillennialism was part of the dirty deal the Catholics made with Rome which they call "the peace of the church" . Rome also aspired to rule for a 1, 000 years.

 

[Evmur]

If I ever wrote that the physical Jews were "cast off forever", I surely erred and mistyped. My belief is, they are cast off the promised land forever and ever. They had the entire land promised to them, they became so wicked that God did what he told them he would do, he cast them out of the promised land. There have been Jews all through the centuries whom God granted repentance and they came to Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Savior. So, I've never said, or meant to say they were cast off in that regard.

You are a purveyor of half truths

God told the Jews He would chuck them off the land and He did so
He told them He would bring them back in the latter days and He will ... He is already doing so.

 

[Evmur]

No, I disagree. Israel's only connection with God was with the law. When the temple was destroyed, they ceased to be God's people forever, since the law was removed to give room for the Spirit to indwell in temples made out of flesh and bones: us!

Lastly, God has only people, not two, much less a nation.

Rubbish God had dealings with Israel before the law and made an everlasting covenant with them. And He foretold their future in the latter days.

 

[Evmur]

You nee

Covenants, Dispensations and the Rapture

The phrases "covenant of works", "covenant of grace" or "covenant of redemption" are not in the Bible, they are theological constructions. We do have the "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" clearly stated in the Bible, the exact wording.

The word "dispensation" is not found in the NET2 Bible, the REB, NRSV, GNB, Weymouth NT, CEV or Williams NT. Rather than "dispensation" you find the words "stewardship", "a commission", "a trust" and "the task assigned". The Greek word for "dispensation" is "G3622 οἰκονομία oikonomia" and it is used in Isaiah 22:19, 21 in the Septuagint where it is translated "administration".

Theologians and men of God have used the word "dispensation" in the past, but nothing like these absurd uses of today. Two examples:

Joseph Benson, 18th century Methodist on Isa. 2:2 - "The Jews, it must be observed, divided the times or succession of the world into three ages or periods: the first, before the law; the second, under the law; the third, under the Messiah: which they justly considered as the last dispensation, designed of God to remain till the consummation of all things. “Accordingly St. Paul tells us, that Christ appeared επι συντελεια των αιωνων , at the consummation of the ages, or several periods of the world, Hebrews 9:26; and, speaking of his own times, saith, τελη των αιωνων , the ends of the world, or conclusion of the ages, are come, 1 Corinthians 10:11."

R.L. Dabney, 18th century Presbyterian: "We conceive the familiar and established division to be correct,which makes two dispensations only, the Old Testament and the New."

That misused word "rapture" is found nowhere in any translation that refers to the return of Christ on the last day. The word can be found in some translations as read in the following:

"Then when you reach the hill of God, where the Philistine governor resides, you will meet a company of prophets coming down from the shrine, led by lute, drum, fife, and lyre, and filled with prophetic rapture...When they reached the hill there was a company of prophets coming to meet him, and the spirit of God suddenly took possession of him, so that he too was filled with prophetic rapture...When the prophetic rapture had passed, he went home." (1Sam 10:5, 10 13, REB)

"And Zechariah his father was filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke in a rapture of praise." (Luke 1:67, Weymouth)

The etymology of the word "rapture" is an eye-opener:

rapture (n.)
c. 1600, "act of carrying off" as prey or plunder, from rapt + -ure, or else from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape" (see rapt). The earliest attested use in English is with women as objects and in 17c. it sometimes meant rape (v.), which word is a cognate of this one.

The sense of "spiritual ecstasy, state of mental transport or exaltation" is recorded by c. 1600 (raptures). The connecting notion is a sudden or violent taking and carrying away. The meaning "expression of exalted or passionate feeling" in words or music is from 1610s."
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=rapture

The biblical Hebrew or Greek is not to be found behind the word "rapture". There is NO passage in the Bible describing the dispensationalists "rapture". It must be read into Scripture out of man's perverse mind.

you need to get out of your books ... ya think Peter and Paul had piles of books and dictionaries?

We don't give a tinker's cuss if you call them dispensations or administrations or stewardships or anything else. What is plain is that God's grace was dispensed differently to different people at different times. YOU are not required to obey the law of Moses as the Jews were in order to receive God's blessing. If you think so you are in trouble.

We will says Paul "be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds" put that in your theological test tube.

Peter doesn't talk about being caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, he doesn't talk about the creation being set FREE from it's bondage to decay. Peter talks about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements.

All that will come to pass but before then there will be the resurrection of the just and the 1, 000 year reign. Only Paul understood that.

Poor ol' Pete scratched his head and got out his commentaries and dictionaries and said "some things our beloved Paul says are hard to be understood"