Dispensationalism...

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Jews were judged under the law because they refused to be saved under grace. God judged them by removing them from His sight. The only connection they had with Him was the temple until it was destroyed. They have had 2,000 years to repent, yet less than 1/2% believe in Jesus. Your assumption is based on an erroneous understanding of the bible because there are no promises to Israel in the NT.

Lev 26

Study it, Study what happens AFTER the temple is removed. When the nations is scattered. And when their land is in possession of the gentiles. And they repent.

What does God promise

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Romans 11, blinded until the Gentiles come in. No one said they will be saved any other way. They will come through Christ.

Amen,

they are not saved in sin, or by rejecting Christ.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" - Gen 15:18 KJV

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." - Gen 17:7-8 KJV

"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;" - Gen 26:4 KJV

"And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed." - Gen 28:13-14 KJV

^ These are all Seed promises per Gal 3:16.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Gal 3:16 KJV

^ The Seed of the promises is Christ.

"If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [...] But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it." - Deut 30:4-5&17-18 KJV

Deut 30 is conditional AND requires the entire land to become a burning wasteland first.

"And the Lord shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law [...] And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein [...] And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee " - Deut 29:21,23a & Deut 30:1

The whole land was never laid to waste, therefore Deut 30 could not have been triggered yet.

"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." - Jer 31:35-36 KJV

This actually happens in Revelation at the time of New Earth and New Heaven. This means that Israel as a nation isn't eternal. Any arrangement with a nation of Israel can't be eternal either.

"Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord." - Jer 31:37 KJV

God can do those things meaning the condition is met, therefore this line is actually saying that this is gauranteed to happen. It foreshadows the closure of the first covenant and the coming of the covenant of Christ. The only seed that could not be cast off per this clause is Christ, the Seed. Everyone else sinned.

Ez 37:
15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

once again, Gal 3 is not about a land promise, it is about a salvation promise.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Israelites have not possessed the land for 2000 years, so that does away with everlasting or forever. The thought that Israel lost the use of the land by disobedience, but not the deed is man-made nonsense.

Lev 26 shuts this thought down And Ezekiel 37 proves that no matter how long is in the care of her enemies. She will one day repent and be returned.

Ezekiel 37 is in my last post.

Lev 26
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You[g] shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.

31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.

32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.

33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

This happened 2000 years ago. Is all hope lost?

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,

41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;

if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

As you said, Everlasting CAN mean eternal. Lev 26 and Ezekiel 37 are but two of many passages that prove it IS eternal When Israel cry’s out (which is what the time of Jacobs trouble is designed to do) God comes to them..

Romans 11 also states that there will be a time given to the gentile. But once this time is fulfilled. All Israel will be saved.. We know that is on the return of Christ.

 

[kaylagrl]

You are right, the word "everlasting" means what it says, which is determined by the context.

From the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament on the Hebrew word olam -

1631a עוֹלָם (‘ôlām) forever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world, etc. (RSV similar in general, but substitutes “always” for “in the world” in Ps 73:12 and “eternity” for “world” in Ecc 3:11.) Probably derived from ‘ālam I, “to hide,” thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past. The Ugaritic cognate is ‘lm, “eternity.”

Though ‘ôlām is used more than three hundred times to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future, the meaning of the word is not confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where it clearly refers to the past. Such usages generally point to something that seems long ago, but rarely if ever refer to a limitless past. Thus in Deut 32:7 and Job 22:15 it may refer to the time of one’s elders. In Prov 22:28; 23:10; Jer 6:16; 18:15; 28:8 it points back somewhat farther. In Isa 58:12, 61:4; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4, and in the Aramaic of Ezr 4:15, 19 it clearly refers to the time just before the exile. In I Sam 27:8, in Isa 51:9 and 63:9, 11 and perhaps Ezk 36:2, it refers to the events of the exodus from Egypt. In Gen 6:4 it points to the time shortly before the flood. None of these past references has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time long before the immediate knowledge of those living. In Isa 64:3 the KJV translates the word “beginning of the world.” In Ps 73:12 and Eccl 3:11 it is translated “world,” suggesting the beginning of a usage that developed greatly in postbiblical times.

Jenni holds that its basic meaning “most distant times” can refer to either the remote past or to the future or to both as due to the fact that it does not occur independently (as a subject or as an object) but only in connection with preposi-tions indicating direction (min “since,” ‘ad “until,” lĕ “up to”) or as an adverbial accusative of direction or finally as the modifying genitive in the construct relationship. In the latter instance ‘ōlām can express by itself the whole range of meanings denoted by all the prepositions “since, until, to the most distant time”; i.e. it assumes the meaning “(unlimited, incalculable) continuance, eternity.” (THAT II, p. 230) J. Barr (Biblical Words for Time (’1969), p. 73) says, “We might therefore best state the “basic meaning” as a kind of range between ‘remotest time’ and ‘perpetuity’”. But as shown above it is sometimes used of a not-so-remote past. For the meaning of the word in its attributive use we should note the designation of the lord as ’el ‘ōlām, “The Eternal God” (Gen 21:33).

The LXX generally translates ‘ōlām by aiōn which has essentially the same range of meaning. That neither the Hebrew nor the Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that sometimes it is thought desirable to repeat the word, not merely saying “forever,” but “forever and ever.”

I underlined key point. This same word is used which is obviously not forever as dispensationalists claim it to be as in:

"Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.(Heb olam)" (Exod 21:6, KJV)

"This is my rest for ever(olam): here will I dwell; for I have desired it." (Ps 132:14, KJV)

The 1828 Webster's definition:
EVERL`ASTING, a. [ever and lasting.] Lasting or enduring for ever; eternal; existing or continuing without end; immortal.
The everlasting God, or Jehovah. Gen 21.
Everlasting fire; everlasting punishment. Mat 18:25.
1. Perpetual; continuing indefinitely, or during the present state of things.
I will give thee, and thy seed after thee, the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession. Gen 17.
The everlasting hills or mountains. Genesis. Habakkuk.
2. In popular usage, endless; continual; unintermitted; as, the family is disturbed with everlasting disputes.
The Israelites have not possessed the land for 2000 years, so that does away with everlasting or forever. The thought that Israel lost the use of the land by disobedience, but not the deed is man-made nonsense.

"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." - Jer 31:35-36 KJV


If the sun stops giving light, and the stars and moon by night, then Israel will cease to be a nation. If that isn't an eternal promise, nothing is, your salvation certainly isn't. smh

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If the sun stops giving light, and the stars and moon by night, then Israel will cease to be a nation. If that isn't an eternal promise, nothing is, your salvation certainly isn't. smh

to me, the biggest danger of replacement theology.

Of course, if I remember right, They do not believe in eternal security anyway. soo..(I could be wrong on my last note. Some may believe in eternal security)

 

[HeIsHere]

Which scriptures say it is conditional?

When God says I WILL. Or I GIVE. And asked for nothing in return. Is that unconditional?

Gen 12 - 15 - and 17 are but three..

If the abrahamic covenant is conditional. Then your salvation is conditional. And you have no hope

The Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled in Jesus. Full stop.

For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Hebrews 11:10

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

In your opinion is "rightly divided" the same or different than "sound exegesis"?

My opinion Sure Doesn't Count For Much, but obedience To God's
Bible study Rules [sound exegesis?] sure does.

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Beckie]

I don't understand what made you change your mind so totally in the other direction. I am trying to read along and keep up. Here we start at the beginning, the unconditional promise made to Abraham.

To answer you will take a few posts . Was not like some one flipped a switch, coming out of Dispensationalism was a process of a few years. I will post scriptures verses not chapters for sake of space we Your quoted from Gen 15 where God is telling Abraham about the land. A bit farther into Genesis we read
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

God put conditions in the covenant. I am reading page 19 , note 1, of dad's old 1967 Scofield Bible. Scofield says it is unconditional the Scriptures show conditions . Here are a few more scriptures which show conditions or compliance of them.

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

I read conditions put on the covenant by God. The above post is about one of the reasons i left dispensationalism . I see Scofield as diving God's people . Dividing unto a 'them and us' theme.
Col_1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
I believe the hope of Israel or Jews ,what every label, is the same Christ in us the hope of glory.

More in another post most folks wont read all of this one.

 

[Beckie]

The Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled in Jesus. Full stop.

For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Hebrews 11:10

Amen Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

[Beckie]

"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." - Jer 31:35-36 KJV


If the sun stops giving light, and the stars and moon by night, then Israel will cease to be a nation. If that isn't an eternal promise, nothing is, your salvation certainly isn't. smh

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

[Jocund]

Ez 37:22 is about the groups coming together under one kingdom and was fulfilled under King David.

Rom 11 never states that there is a time for the gentiles, only that the fullness of the gentiles will come in before the blind parts of true Israel are brought in. This could be by season rather than a single distinct event.

Gal 3:16 is specifically correcting misinterpretations of the Seed promises in the OT. The passage is about promises not salvation. Abraham was not promised salvation, he attained it through faith which was counted for righteousness. There was a nation promise, a land promise, and a blessing promise. You'll notice Gal 3:16 references "promises".

Jos 21:43 specifically states that Israel attained the land promised.

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein." - Jos 21:43 KJV

So this comes back to what is meant by a possession that is "everlasting"/"forever"/"perpetual". If gaps in possession are established, is this related to unrepetence noted in Lev 26? Since Christ is risen, can repentence be attained without Christ? All true Christians will state a clear "no". I don't know what Dispensationalists think of this. For the Dispensationalists here, do you believe repentence can be attained without Christ?

We should keep in mind Heb 11.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [...] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." - Heb 11:1&13-16 KJV

This shows that dead children of Abraham no longer have the opportunity to return to the earthly land promised to Abraham and Seed. But this passage shows that in their continued existence after death that they look forward to God's country and this seems to point to the city of New Jerusalem.

It's not entirely clear to me whether this is following the fulfilment through equivalency seen in the OT, or whether something else is going on here.

What does everyone think of Heb 11:13-16?

 

[Ethan1942]

"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." - Jer 31:35-36 KJV


If the sun stops giving light, and the stars and moon by night, then Israel will cease to be a nation. If that isn't an eternal promise, nothing is, your salvation certainly isn't. smh

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Gal 3:6-8, KJV)

"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Gal 3:14-18, KJV)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29, KJV)

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

"For neither circumcision nor the lack of it has any value, but only a new creation. Now peace and mercy be on all who walk by this rule; that is, on the true Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-16, Williams)

"Yet God forbid that I should boast about anything or anybody except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, which means that the world is a dead thing to me and I am a dead man to the world. But in Christ it is not circumcision or uncircumcision that counts but the power of new birth. To all who live by this principle, to the true Israel of God, may there be peace and mercy!" (Gal 6:14-16 Phillips)

Translator note from the NetBible regarding "and" in this verse:
The word “and” (καί) can be interpreted in two ways: (1) It could be rendered as “also” which would indicate that two distinct groups are in view, namely “all who will behave in accordance with this rule” and “the Israel of God.” Or (2) it could be rendered “even,” which would indicate that “all who behave in accordance with this rule” are “the Israel of God.” In other words, in this latter view, “even” = “that is.”

The second choice in the context is the obvious true one. It is about believers in Jesus Christ, the church, the true Israel of God.

THE NEW TESTAMENT INTERPRETS THE OLD TESTAMENT

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled in Jesus. Full stop.

For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Hebrews 11:10

The salvation aspect was fulfilled Amen

The land part of the covenant is still in effect. Everlasting has not stopped yet

 

[Beckie]

I don't understand what made you change your mind so totally in the other direction. I am trying to read along and keep up. Here we start at the beginning, the unconditional promise made to Abraham.

Here is another reason i ditched dispensationalism .
From the parable of the weeds
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Here is the Scofield note
Matthew 13:30
1 Gather
The gathering of the tares into bundles for burning does not imply immediate judgment. At the end of this age the tares are set apart for burning, but first the wheat is gathered into the barn.;

To my understanding/belief Scofield already got it wrong stating not once but through out his notes the Abraham covenant is unconditional . I choose not to believe much of what he says so i search things out.

He is often as subtil as satan in the garden.

 

[Beckie]

kaylagrl said:
I don't understand what made you change your mind so totally in the other direction.

The Kingdom of God v. Kingdom of Heaven

Posted are many of the times the words Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are used interchangeably in Scripture .


Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Mar 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it
Mar 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Mat_19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar_10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luk_18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.[/quote]


Scofield notes
kingdom of God
The kingdom of God is to be distinguished from the kingdom of heaven , in five respects:
(1) The kingdom of God is universal, including all moral intelligences willingly subject to the will of God, whether angels, the Church, or saints of past or future dispensations while the kingdom of heaven is Messianic, mediatorial, and Davidic, and has for its object the establishment of the kingdom of God in the earth
(2) The kingdom of God is entered only by the new birth the kingdom of heaven, during this age, is the sphere of a profession which may be real or false.
(3) Since the kingdom of heaven is the earthly sphere of the universal kingdom of God, the two have almost all things in common. For this reason many parables and other teachings are spoken of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew, and of the kingdom of God in Mark and Luke. It is the omissions which are significant. The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net are not spoken of the kingdom of God. In that kingdom there are neither tares nor bad fish. But the parable of the leaven is spoken of the kingdom of God also, for, alas, even the true doctrines of the kingdom are leavened with the errors of which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians were the representatives.
(4) The kingdom of God "comes not with outward show" Luk_17:20 but is chiefly that which is inward and spiritual Rom_14:17 while the kingdom of heaven is organic, and is to be manifested in glory on the earth.
(5) The kingdom of heaven merges into the kingdom of God when Christ, having put all enemies under his feet, "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father"

 

[Beckie]

Time for a break my eyes are not focusing real well .

 

[Ethan1942]

to me, the biggest danger of replacement theology.

Of course, if I remember right, They do not believe in eternal security anyway. soo..(I could be wrong on my last note. Some may believe in eternal security)

Dispensationalists can invent the term "replacement theology" but Gal. 6:16 in context is quite clear. If any descriptive phrase could be invented, it would be "Israel continued", which is the body of Christ, the church, the New Covenant congregation. I have no idea where you got the idea that these people, the overwhelming Bible scholars from the past, did not believe in "eternal security". It is true most did not believe in the abuse called "once saved always saved" and taught the perseverance of the saints. Maybe you were thinking of one person, John Wesley who commented on Gal. 6:16 thus:

"And as many as walk according to this rule - Glorying only in the cross of Christ. Being crucified to the world. And, Created anew. Peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel, that is, the Church, of God - Which consists of all those, and those only, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule."

Of course, John Calvin wrote clearly on Gal. 6:16:
"And upon the Israel of God 101) This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, — and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith, (Galatians 3:29,) and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church. On the contrary, the name and lineage are the sole boast of Israel according to the flesh; and this led the apostle to argue in the Epistle to the Romans, that 'they are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children.'” (Romans 9:6.)"

Peter Pett the British Baptist comments well using the Scriptures:
"The combination of peace and mercy in such close conjunction in a blessing occurs nowhere in Judaism, but it is partially found in Psa 85:10 (Psa 84:11 in the LXX) and in Isa 54:10. The latter is especially appropriate, ‘neither shall my covenant of peace be removed, says Yahweh Who has mercy on you.’
‘And (namely) on the Israel of God.’ Throughout his letter he has demonstrated that the old unbelieving Israel is finished with. Their rites no longer apply, their submission to the Law is now futile, they are no longer the true sons of Abraham or heirs of the promise made to him (Gal 3:18; Gal 3:28-29). They are the sons of the slave woman who is after the flesh (Gal 4:23), they are children of Hagar who have been brought into bondage (Gal 4:24). They are children of the old Jerusalem which is in bondage (Gal 4:25). They are as such to be cast out (Gal 4:30).
But now there is a new Israel. They are, like Isaac, the children of promise (Gal 4:28). They are the children of the free-woman (Gal 4:31). They are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:29). They are adopted as sons and heirs of God (Gal 4:5-7). They are reckoned as righteous by faith, just as their father Abraham was (Gal 3:6-7). They have received the promise of the Spirit through faith (Gal 3:14). They are children of the new Jerusalem which is in Heaven (Gal 4:26). They are born after the Spirit (Gal 4:29). They are the new people of God. And they consist of believing ex-Jews and believing ex-Gentiles (Gal 3:28). They are ‘the congregation (church) of God’ (Gal 1:13), the Israel of God."

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Dispensationalists can invent the term "replacement theology" but Gal. 6:16 in context is quite clear. If any descriptive phrase could be invented, it would be "Israel continued", which is the body of Christ, the church, the New Covenant congregation. I have no idea where you got the idea that these people, the overwhelming Bible scholars from the past, did not believe in "eternal security". It is true most did not believe in the abuse called "once saved always saved" and taught the perseverance of the saints. Maybe you were thinking of one person, John Wesley who commented on Gal. 6:16 thus:

"And as many as walk according to this rule - Glorying only in the cross of Christ. Being crucified to the world. And, Created anew. Peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel, that is, the Church, of God - Which consists of all those, and those only, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule."

Of course, John Calvin wrote clearly on Gal. 6:16:
"And upon the Israel of God 101) This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, — and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith, (Galatians 3:29,) and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church. On the contrary, the name and lineage are the sole boast of Israel according to the flesh; and this led the apostle to argue in the Epistle to the Romans, that 'they are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children.'” (Romans 9:6.)"

Peter Pett the British Baptist comments well using the Scriptures:
"The combination of peace and mercy in such close conjunction in a blessing occurs nowhere in Judaism, but it is partially found in Psa 85:10 (Psa 84:11 in the LXX) and in Isa 54:10. The latter is especially appropriate, ‘neither shall my covenant of peace be removed, says Yahweh Who has mercy on you.’
‘And (namely) on the Israel of God.’ Throughout his letter he has demonstrated that the old unbelieving Israel is finished with. Their rites no longer apply, their submission to the Law is now futile, they are no longer the true sons of Abraham or heirs of the promise made to him (Gal 3:18; Gal 3:28-29). They are the sons of the slave woman who is after the flesh (Gal 4:23), they are children of Hagar who have been brought into bondage (Gal 4:24). They are children of the old Jerusalem which is in bondage (Gal 4:25). They are as such to be cast out (Gal 4:30).
But now there is a new Israel. They are, like Isaac, the children of promise (Gal 4:28). They are the children of the free-woman (Gal 4:31). They are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:29). They are adopted as sons and heirs of God (Gal 4:5-7). They are reckoned as righteous by faith, just as their father Abraham was (Gal 3:6-7). They have received the promise of the Spirit through faith (Gal 3:14). They are children of the new Jerusalem which is in Heaven (Gal 4:26). They are born after the Spirit (Gal 4:29). They are the new people of God. And they consist of believing ex-Jews and believing ex-Gentiles (Gal 3:28). They are ‘the congregation (church) of God’ (Gal 1:13), the Israel of God."

replacement theology states the promises which was given to one nation (isreal) based on birthright (the land of canaan and the promises which come with it) is now given to the church.

God promise Israel a plot of land. Based on birthright alone. It had nothing to do with their salvation and their salvation was not required (however the nations obedience was reqired if they were to LIVE in the land that is there)

the church did not replace Israel in this covenant.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Ez 37:22 is about the groups coming together under one kingdom and was fulfilled under King David.

Excuse me, But Ez 37 says these two nations, which were scattered throughout the world because of sin will come together.

They were not split until Babylon, even then, at its earliest. They were not removed. Judah was not completly scattered until AD 7o

So Ezek 37 is something which must occure after the events of 70 AD

Rom 11 never states that there is a time for the gentiles, only that the fullness of the gentiles will come in before the blind parts of true Israel are brought in. This could be by season rather than a single distinct event.

The fullness of the gentiles speaks of the time Paul was in. They were under roman rule. Gentiles have been in control of Jerusalem since Babylon first took over and destroyed it. They will continue until th elamb returns, At which time, israel will repent. And ALL israel will be saved.

Gal 3:16 is specifically correcting misinterpretations of the Seed promises in the OT. The passage is about promises not salvation. Abraham was not promised salvation, he attained it through faith which was counted for righteousness. There was a nation promise, a land promise, and a blessing promise. You'll notice Gal 3:16 references "promises".

Gal 3 speaks of salvation coming through the seed. It speaks NOTHING of the land promise.

Jos 21:43 specifically states that Israel attained the land promised.

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein." - Jos 21:43 KJV

Yes they recieved it completely. This does not negate the promise. The promise is to be forever. If not. There would be no need of a remnant/

So this comes back to what is meant by a possession that is "everlasting"/"forever"/"perpetual". If gaps in possession are established, is this related to unrepetence noted in Lev 26? Since Christ is risen, can repentence be attained without Christ? All true Christians will state a clear "no". I don't know what Dispensationalists think of this. For the Dispensationalists here, do you believe repentence can be attained without Christ?

We should keep in mind Heb 11.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [...] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." - Heb 11:1&13-16 KJV

This shows that dead children of Abraham no longer have the opportunity to return to the earthly land promised to Abraham and Seed. But this passage shows that in their continued existence after death that they look forward to God's country and this seems to point to the city of New Jerusalem.

It's not entirely clear to me whether this is following the fulfilment through equivalency seen in the OT, or whether something else is going on here.

What does everyone think of Heb 11:13-16?

Heb 11 again speaks of salvation

The problem with preterists or ammillenialism or whatever you want to call it is they try to revert the physical promise to the salvation promise

this is a mistake