Dispensationalism...

[Beckie]

No but there is a promise that they who were rejected will be received and those who were cast away will gain full acceptance ... therefore we may assume they will inherit the promise.

and assuming does what? Why not just accept what the Scriptures say . God's Word is complete

 

[Evmur]

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matt 24:34,
KJV)

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Matt 24:34, REB)

"I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place." (Matt 24:34, Weymouth)

"Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died." (Matt 24:34, GNB92)

It is real twisting of Scripture to see the things prior to Matt. 24:34 referring to some tribulation in our future! The grammar is quite clear in the KJV, and other translations saw the need to spell it out! This section is clearly about 70 AD!

Go to the OT symbolism to see what God coming on clouds can mean: Isa. 19:1; Nah 1:3; Psa.104:3

I agree the KJ has it right, "this generation" which generation? the generation which is alive and who witness all the signs Jesus has been talking about ... all the signs Jesus spoke about did not come to pass in 70 ad.

 

[Evmur]

When it comes to the seriousness of God's word, I do not "assume", or at least I strive not to "assume". I stick to:

"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

The dispensational system is built upon assuming, reading into, and flat out rejection of the plain statements of Holy Scripture!

But you don't do you, Paul says they will be accepted who were rejected ... you refuse to believe it, you say they are cast off forever.

 

[Lanolin]

Are you lot arguing again? lol

 

[Beckie]

I agree the KJ has it right, "this generation" which generation? the generation which is alive and who witness all the signs Jesus has been talking about ... all the signs Jesus spoke about did not come to pass in 70 ad

Spoken as a true dispensationalist. Believing Jesus does not the difference between this and that, classic.

 

[chess-player]

I think you mean pre tribulation rapture ... yeh that's rubbish. But there will be a rapture.

Are you saying that Jesus came back in 70 ad? according to Matt. 24 He comes in the clouds after the tribulation.

Number one, you make a grave mistake by ignoring Hebrew linguistic forms of language. Clouds are not to be taken literally the same way westerners read the bible. OT scriptures like Ps. 68:4 and Isa. 19:1 reveals that God rides on the clouds. Do you believe that should be taken literally?

When writing poetically or in apocalyptic genre, one must always take into consideration the original culture, the language, and the time these scriptures were written. The gap between the writings of the OT and the NT is enormous compared to us since language changes continuously, especially when we are talking about ancient languages.

Coming in the clouds is an apocalyptic metaphor for judgment (Isa. 19:1, Jer. 4:12, Rev. 7:1), God came in judgment in the OT, but never appeared visibly. If He did, all of Israel and the neighboring nations would have been incinerated by the very presence of His holiness. Jesus being God almighty never promised to appear visibly to the natural eyes, yet He was present when Jerusalem was destroyed, just as He has the attributes of God that make Him omnipresent by His Spirit.

In the destruction of Jerusalem with the Roman army advancing against the doomed city, the Jews were to discern that the crucified Messiah (Rev 1:7) had returned in spirit to judge them for all her sins committed from the beginning (Jesus prophesied that back in Mat. 23.

The judgment itself would be recognized as the Lord coming in great power and glory to give them what they deserved. The Romans were a rod of His anger, just as the Assyrians that God used to judge Israel (Isa. 10:5)

Matthew 23:34–36 (NASB95)
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

 

[Evmur]

Don't talk to me about Israel being prophesied in the OT. The prophecies were about Jesus Christ, not Israel (LK 24:25-27, 44-45, Jn 5:39-40). God fulfilled His promises to them in the OT by giving them the land filled with milk and honey. They tore His promises to pieces, broke His law, and tore His covenant right in the middle of God's grace who gave them His Son for them to be saved first. They rejected the Lord for the most (except the remnant). Don't tell me that God made them do it.

God knows the past, present, and future but that does not mean He forces people to do His will even if it goes against His holy character. People make choices regardless of God's desire for them to be saved (1Pe. 3:8) 's will for their lives. The nation of Israel set themselves against God from the very beginning of their inception to the point that Christ called them out in Mat. 23:34-39 and prophesied their judgment because they refused to believe in Him because they had hardened their hearts against Him. That was their choice.

The rejection of Christ was made from their own black hearts because they hated Him. Don't tell me that God made them hate Him and made them reject Christ. Calvinists think the same way.

Have you read Romans 3:9-20 and 9:6-8? Do you understand that Israel stopped being a nation once the wrath of God fell upon them AS PROPHESIED by Jesus and by Paul? A.D. 70 was the end of the nation because once the temple was destroyed, Israel's umbilical cord that connected them to God was broken through the rejection of His grace in Christ, and through a broken law that they thought was the way of salvation

Once you learn to put Christ first, you will discover that Israel was chosen to be the means whereby the incarnation would take place to reverse Adam's sin and bring salvation to the world.

Christin Zionists put Israel before Christ because they fail to see that once Christ came, the clock began to tick for Israel to be judged for all her sins against God.

Luke 19:40–44 (NASB95)
40 "But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”
41 When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43 “For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,
44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”


1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (NASB95)
14 "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."


Matthew 23:34–38 (NASB95)
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!"

The scriptures are clear. You need to repent from being a Zionist Christian instead of being a disciple of the Lord and a son of God through faith in Christ.

Nobody imagined that the Jews would inherit anything apart from Christ ... they will be converted, they will repent, they will mourn for Him whom they have pierced.

 

[Evmur]

Number one, you make a grave mistake by ignoring Hebrew linguistic forms of language. Clouds are not to be taken literally the same way westerners read the bible. OT scriptures like Ps. 68:4 and Isa. 19:1 reveals that God rides on the clouds. Do you believe that should be taken literally?

When writing poetically or in apocalyptic genre, one must always take into consideration the original culture, the language, and the time these scriptures were written. The gap between the writings of the OT and the NT is enormous compared to us since language changes continuously, especially when we are talking about ancient languages.

Coming in the clouds is an apocalyptic metaphor for judgment (Isa. 19:1, Jer. 4:12, Rev. 7:1), God came in judgment in the OT, but never appeared visibly. If He did, all of Israel and the neighboring nations would have been incinerated by the very presence of His holiness. Jesus being God almighty never promised to appear visibly to the natural eyes, yet He was present when Jerusalem was destroyed, just as He has the attributes of God that make Him omnipresent by His Spirit.

In the destruction of Jerusalem with the Roman army advancing against the doomed city, the Jews were to discern that the crucified Messiah (Rev 1:7) had returned in spirit to judge them for all her sins committed from the beginning (Jesus prophesied that back in Mat. 23.

The judgment itself would be recognized as the Lord coming in great power and glory to give them what they deserved. The Romans were a rod of His anger, just as the Assyrians that God used to judge Israel (Isa. 10:5)

Matthew 23:34–36 (NASB95)
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

When Jesus ascended He was lifted up and a cloud hid Him from their sight. The angel said He will return in like manner as He went.

 

[chess-player]

When Jesus ascended He was lifted up and a cloud hid Him from their sight. The angel said He will return in like manner as He went.

When Jesus ascended He was lifted up and a cloud hid Him from their sight. The angel said He will return in like manner as He went.

When Jesus ascended He was lifted up and a cloud hid Him from their sight. The angel said He will return in like manner as He went.

He did return to end the old covenant and to do away with the law, so whether He returned physically or invidibly is irrelevant since the OT had to end either way before giving room for the new covenant to reach the ends of the world with the gospel of Christ (Messiah). Once the old covenant ended, God also ended His relationship with Israel. Those who were under the law were judged for failing to keep it perfectly (the law knows no grace), and for refusing to be saved through the grace of Jesus Christ (Titus 2:11).

 

[chess-player]

Nobody imagined that the Jews would inherit anything apart from Christ ... they will be converted, they will repent, they will mourn for Him whom they have pierced.

They will be converted? If they had 2,000 years to repent, and didn't, believe me, they wouldn't be converted. By the way, God does not respect race, culture, or ethnic background, except those who believe in His Son. Again, only those who believe in Christ will prevail at the end, not those who belong to a certain race. That's freshly thinking my friend.

 

[chess-player]

Nobody imagined that the Jews would inherit anything apart from Christ ... they will be converted, they will repent, they will mourn for Him whom they have pierced.

After 2,000 years of unbelief, I doubt it. There are less than 1/2% saved in Israel today. By now, (after 2,000 years) they should've taken over and preached the gospel to the whole world, yet they are shining by their absence. Also, remember that all unconverted Jews do not study the OT but the Talmud. For reference, the Talmud is a body of Jewish civil and ceremonial law and legend comprising the Mishnah and the Gemara. There are two versions of the Talmud: the Babylonian Talmud (which dates from the 5th-century ad but includes earlier material) and the earlier Palestinian or Jerusalem Talmud. They study something that has nothing to do with the OT (the word of God), therefore they can't truly be convicted of sin. If all they had was the OT, I would have the hope to believe that eventually, they would believe in Christ.

The only hope these people have today is to believe in Christ, not some fictitious future that will never become a reality.

 

[HeIsHere]

Nobody imagined that the Jews would inherit anything apart from Christ ... they will be converted, they will repent, they will mourn for Him whom they have pierced.

It"s a little late, those people are dead.

 

[chess-player]

When Jesus ascended He was lifted up and a cloud hid Him from their sight. The angel said He will return in like manner as He went.

Does the word of God say that He was going to return in physical form? If that were the intent, I would have to admit that Jesus would have to hide His holiness to prevent the crowd from dying at the reflection of His glory. Remember what happened to Daniel, Saul of Tarsus, and John the apostle when they were face to face with the glory of God.

 

[Beckie]

It was not a snap thing but some where/time i understood dispensationalism to be saying the blood a Jewish person has in veins saves them. Another piece of dispensationalism the diminishes the Blood of Christ.

 

[Evmur]

Spoken as a true dispensationalist. Believing Jesus does not the difference between this and that, classic.

I think you are talking about Mid Acts Dispensationalists or MAD to give it's acronym. I am not a MADianite. When I speak about Dispensations I mean nothing more than that God has dealt differently with different people at different times.

This is exactly what the Covenant people believe also.

The REAL grievance they have is the fact we believe in the 1, 000 year reign of Christ on earth with His saints. And they grieve that we believe the Jews will be converted.

 

[Evmur]

He did return to end the old covenant and to do away with the law, so whether He returned physically or invidibly is irrelevant since the OT had to end either way before giving room for the new covenant to reach the ends of the world with the gospel of Christ (Messiah). Once the old covenant ended, God also ended His relationship with Israel. Those who were under the law were judged for failing to keep it perfectly (the law knows no grace), and for refusing to be saved through the grace of Jesus Christ (Titus 2:11).

So I ask have they stumbled so as to fall? God forbid
but through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make them jealous.

Now if their trespass means riches for the world and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles how much more will their full inclusion mean?

Why do you deny that they will obtain full inclusion?

It is the ones who trespassed and the ones who failed who will obtain full inclusion.

 

[Evmur]

Does the word of God say that He was going to return in physical form? If that were the intent, I would have to admit that Jesus would have to hide His holiness to prevent the crowd from dying at the reflection of His glory. Remember what happened to Daniel, Saul of Tarsus, and John the apostle when they were face to face with the glory of God.

John says He comes descending in the clouds and every eye shall see Him.

 

[Evmur]

After 2,000 years of unbelief, I doubt it. There are less than 1/2% saved in Israel today. By now, (after 2,000 years) they should've taken over and preached the gospel to the whole world, yet they are shining by their absence. Also, remember that all unconverted Jews do not study the OT but the Talmud. For reference, the Talmud is a body of Jewish civil and ceremonial law and legend comprising the Mishnah and the Gemara. There are two versions of the Talmud: the Babylonian Talmud (which dates from the 5th-century ad but includes earlier material) and the earlier Palestinian or Jerusalem Talmud. They study something that has nothing to do with the OT (the word of God), therefore they can't truly be convicted of sin. If all they had was the OT, I would have the hope to believe that eventually, they would believe in Christ.

The only hope these people have today is to believe in Christ, not some fictitious future that will never become a reality.

Nobody is denying that they have stumbled but YOU deny that they will be accepted. They have not stumbled so as to fall, they have been laid aside.


... until the fulness of the Gentiles are brought in. That's the teaching of Paul.

 

[Evmur]

They will be converted? If they had 2,000 years to repent, and didn't, believe me, they wouldn't be converted. By the way, God does not respect race, culture, or ethnic background, except those who believe in His Son. Again, only those who believe in Christ will prevail at the end, not those who belong to a certain race. That's freshly thinking my friend.

... so God did not choose Israel ... that what you are saying?

 

[Beckie]

I think you are talking about Mid Acts Dispensationalists or MAD to give it's acronym. I am not a MADianite. When I speak about Dispensations I mean nothing more than that God has dealt differently with different people at different times.

This is exactly what the Covenant people believe also.

The REAL grievance they have is the fact we believe in the 1, 000 year reign of Christ on earth with His saints. And they grieve that we believe the Jews will be converted.

What some groups believe does not make general good ol dispensationalism as stated in the OP Biblical