And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Runningman]

Gospel of mat 25

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So only the righteous get eternal life, right? That means that the unrighteous don’t get eternal life. Do you agree?

 

[Runningman]

Yes it is true that the smoke of the wicked of Edom will ascend forever and ever. There is an eternal judgment that is promised to Edom that is beyond the natural condition of her ancient towns. So it is true that her smoke ascends forever because the souls of the wicked of Edom and those who were destroyed in Sodom are reserved in hell and will be punished further when they are cast into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment will ascend forever and ever.

Then in that day you will know that YES both the smoke of their torment and their torment will ascend forever and ever.

You’re literally just making things up at this point. Try harder.

Edom was a literal place on Earth and it was burned up. It’s gone. There’s no smoke rising forever there. Forever doesn’t always literally mean forever in the Bible. Proven fact.

 

[Runningman]

peopel go to eternal punishment

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

how you punish the death

Punishment is a singular noun not an adjective. An adjective would be “punishing” and if that were in Matthew 25:46 it would describe the eternal state of the unrighteous. However, punishment being a singular noun, it doesn’t imply a continual state of punishment that’s ongoing. Punishment is one thing and the Bible repeatedly says the unrighteous are destroyed or put to death, not tormented eternally.

Eternal punishment is death. They lose their immortality as the Bible repeatedly says.

 

[Amanuensis]

The verses about worms not dying doesn’t imply the subjects of the worms don’t die. The worms don’t die because they have billions of bodies to eat. How do immortal worms live in fire anyway? I think that’s figurative language.



I got a small chuckle out of that. It’s clear you have a knack for ad hominems. The fact is you have failed using Biblical texts to prove they are alive experiencing eternal torment via fire or worms. The Bible just doesn’t say that, your projection of eternal torment into the Bible is all you’ve shown here.

Of course it is figurative. We don't know what it looks like exactly. The fire, the worms, the smoke, they are all other worldly. The bodies that the wicked are raised with that are cast into the Lake of Fire are other worldly. There is every reason to think they can suffer forever without "burning up" and every reason to think that the worms of their torment can gnaw at them forever, they are not physical bodies in the earthly sense.

 

[Jackson123]

As an English teacher, I can confidently say that smoke rising forever doesn’t imply eternal torment. The bodies are being burned after their second death and there are a lot of bodies, too. This is less about reading comprehension and more about Bible illlteracy.

Revelation 20:14,15
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire to undergo a second death. We’re talking about possibly billions of bodies being burned. Effectually, the smoke will rise forever.

Revelation 2:11 introduces the fact that the second death will have pain involved, but it isn’t permanent. The pain is a separate experience to the second death. Death is a permanent end to life.

Revelation 2:11
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Also, you should note, “smoke rising forever” is poetic language called apocalyptic language and it isn’t literal in Isaiah 34.

Isaiah 34:9,10
9Edom’s streams will be turned to tar,
and her soil to sulfur;
her land will become a blazing pitch.
10It will not be quenched—day or night.
Its smoke will ascend forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever again pass through it.

so important questions. Is Edom still burning? Is there smoke rising forever there? Has no one passed through it again? The answers to all of those questions are no.

Now reconsider what you just said about it being impossible to have smoke that rises forever unless there is eternal torment. Those two things are not mutually exclusive according to the Bible, English grammar, or logic.

sorry I am not able to only replay part of your post do to my old computer not work good

but your question is sodom still burning

no

but hell burn forever

so the analogy use hell doesn’t mean exact happen to hell

analogy only to clarifying some thing or explain not to prove anything

if you want to know what analogy do, read this link


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...vidence.html&usg=AOvVaw1X9BZcH2YwF8bi6zD2cTBs

one day Jesus use analogy to explain about kingdom

farmer spread the seed

farmer is preacher

seed is the word

to make people, may be some that hear are farmer so they have idea what going on

not to prove that word is seed

 

[Amanuensis]

You’re literally just making things up at this point. Try harder.

Edom was a literal place on Earth and it was burned up. It’s gone. There’s no smoke rising forever there. Forever doesn’t always literally mean forever in the Bible. Proven fact.

 

[Jackson123]

Punishment is a singular noun not an adjective. An adjective would be “punishing” and if that were in Matthew 25:46 it would describe the eternal state of the unrighteous. However, punishment being a singular noun, it doesn’t imply a continual state of punishment that’s ongoing. Punishment is one thing and the Bible repeatedly says the unrighteous are destroyed or put to death, not tormented eternally.

Eternal punishment is death. They lose their immortality as the Bible repeatedly says.

this from oxford dictionary online

the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
"crime demands just punishment

infliction mean the action that make pain

So eternal punishment mean to make eternal pain

how you impose punishment to death soul
you can not make death soul pain anymore

remember the word eternal mean never ending

 

[Amanuensis]

Punishment is a singular noun not an adjective. An adjective would be “punishing” and if that were in Matthew 25:46 it would describe the eternal state of the unrighteous. However, punishment being a singular noun, it doesn’t imply a continual state of punishment that’s ongoing. Punishment is one thing and the Bible repeatedly says the unrighteous are destroyed or put to death, not tormented eternally.

Eternal punishment is death. They lose their immortality as the Bible repeatedly says.

You are needing to constantly attempt to say things that don't make sense in order to support your ideas that contradict the plain meaning of the scriptures. You should be aware that we are all noticing that. When you have to do that over and over again for various scriptures it is a sign that of a false teaching or even a cult.

Punishment requires someone to be on the receiving end of the punishment. Punishment requires that someone have feeling of being punished. It is impossible in Greek or English to call something eternal punishment that does not involved a person feeling the effects of the punishment eternally.

You are trying to define eternal punishment to mean eternal consequences or something similar in your adlib logic but you don't have the authority to do so and no one will agree with your attempt to change the definition of words. You will have to work with Websters or Oxford or Merriam on that but until then, punishment still means that someone is feeling the punishment for it to be punishment.

Eternal punishment requires the subjects of the punishment to know that they are being punished. And even why.

 

[Jackson123]

this from oxford dictionary online

the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
"crime demands just punishment

infliction mean the action that make pain

So eternal punishment mean to make eternal pain

how you impose punishment to death soul
you can not make death soul pain anymore

remember the word eternal mean never ending

That above is the definition of punishment from Oxford dictionary online

I mean the first sentence
start from “ the infliction …. To …just punishment”

the rest is my comment

 

[Amanuensis]

That above is the definition of punishment from Oxford dictionary online

I mean the first sentence
start from “ the infliction …. To …just punishment”

the rest is my comment

Yes it requires that the subject being punished be alive to know about it. No one ever says we are punishing the dead criminal by not mowing his grave. That would be nonsense. We are not punishing him, if he is not aware of it. We might be disrespecting his memory or insulting his grave, but we are not punishing him.

In the biblical context of eternal punishment it would require that they be aware of it in that spiritual realm. There is no such thing as eternal punishment with no one there to receive the punishment. If they are not existing it might be possible to call that eternal consequences but it can't be called eternal punishment.

To insist on calling their death eternal punishment is either 1) extreme ignorance of English word usage or 2) willful belligerent, obnoxious forcing of definitions that violate the English and announce to everyone that you are intellectually dishonest and childish willing to dig in your heels when you should be conceding that punishment is not what you can do to dead people.

 

[Amanuensis]

Punishment is a singular noun not an adjective. An adjective would be “punishing” and if that were in Matthew 25:46 it would describe the eternal state of the unrighteous. However, punishment being a singular noun, it doesn’t imply a continual state of punishment that’s ongoing. Punishment is one thing and the Bible repeatedly says the unrighteous are destroyed or put to death, not tormented eternally.

Eternal punishment is death. They lose their immortality as the Bible repeatedly says.

You say that you can punish dead people. The entire rest of the English speaking world says that you can't punish dead people.

If they are dead and unawares you can't do anything to them that would be called punishing them.

If they were executed for a crime that would be their punishment and it would end there. No one ever said they are punished forever because they were executed. They are dead forever yes. But they are not punished forever. That is not proper English. And if you told your students that it was you should have been fired.

The only way that they could be punished forever is spiritual judgment from God whereby they are aware of it forever. And that is a real thing.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes it requires that the subject being punished be alive to know about it. No one ever says we are punishing the dead criminal by not mowing his grave. That would be nonsense. We are not punishing him, if he is not aware of it. We might be disrespecting his memory or insulting his grave, but we are not punishing him.

In the biblical context of eternal punishment it would require that they be aware of it in that spiritual realm. There is no such thing as eternal punishment with no one there to receive the punishment. If they are not existing it might be possible to call that eternal consequences but it can't be called eternal punishment.

To insist on calling their death eternal punishment is either 1) extreme ignorance of English word usage or 2) willful belligerent, obnoxious forcing of definitions that violate the English and announce to everyone that you are intellectually dishonest and childish willing to dig in your heels when you should be conceding that punishment is not what you can do to dead people.

Yep
when you cremated your dead grandpa
do not mean you eternally punish your grandpa into fire

you not make your dead grandpa suffer pain

let cremate our dead grandpa do not mean let eternally punish our dead grandpa

So eternal punishment do not mean dead

 

[Gojira]

Expertly said. I read the OP and then this was the first comment after. I feel no need to read any more of this thread after 'the question' and 'the answer'. Godspeed.

Wow... thank you. You've succeeded in humbling a 400' reptile that subsists on radiation and the flesh of his enemies.

 

[SonsOfCaleb]

Wow... thank you. You've succeeded in humbling a 400' reptile that subsists on radiation and the flesh of his enemies.

I do like to get to the point.

 

[Gojira]

Only the smoke rises forever, the torment doesn’t last forever.

That’s your assumption.

Who’s in hell now? Verse?

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. That’s clear. Those who are judged for their sins are put to death, those who are judged by their faith in Christ are given eternal life.

Thread's getting tiring. I'm going to start ignoring this after this response. But...

My "assumption" was based on actual words. So definitionally it's not an assumption.

I don't know who's in Hell now. Do you know who died and burned up once and now is no more? I would however say that that rich man Jesus spoke about, the one who was thoroughly insensitive to the needs of a disabled man, was not consumed by fire, but was in perpetual torment. A thousand years after the great tribulation, the devil will be again released and, after his glorious butt-kicking, will go to join the beast -- who will apparently still be there experiencing barbecue from the perspective of a chicken leg.

I'm done with the this and the stupid snarkiness it has brought out of some people.

 

[Gojira]

I do like to get to the point.

Consider the point gotten to.

 

[Jackson123]

Thread's getting tiring. I'm going to start ignoring this after this response. But...

My "assumption" was based on actual words. So definitionally it's not an assumption.

I don't know who's in Hell now. Do you know who died and burned up once and now is no more? I would however say that that rich man Jesus spoke about, the one who was thoroughly insensitive to the needs of a disabled man, was not consumed by fire, but was in perpetual torment. A thousand years after the great tribulation, the devil will be again released and, after his glorious butt-kicking, will go to join the beast -- who will apparently still be there experiencing barbecue from the perspective of a chicken leg.

I'm done with the this and the stupid snarkiness it has brought out of some people.

Yep the rich man ask if God let Lazarus bring water
he was suffer thirsty, not die

 

[Runningman]

Thread's getting tiring. I'm going to start ignoring this after this response. But...

My "assumption" was based on actual words. So definitionally it's not an assumption.

I don't know who's in Hell now. Do you know who died and burned up once and now is no more? I would however say that that rich man Jesus spoke about, the one who was thoroughly insensitive to the needs of a disabled man, was not consumed by fire, but was in perpetual torment. A thousand years after the great tribulation, the devil will be again released and, after his glorious butt-kicking, will go to join the beast -- who will apparently still be there experiencing barbecue from the perspective of a chicken leg.

I'm done with the this and the stupid snarkiness it has brought out of some people.

You’re right this thread is getting tiring. At this point in the thread we have people arguing that death doesn’t mean death, destroy doesn’t mean destroy, and people get eternal life in hell, it’s just such a spectacle to watch people changing word definitions.

I’m not changing my mind, they’re not changing their mind, maybe I should do what you’re doing and move on to more fertile soil.

Thanks for sharing your perspective, though, but it doesn’t say the rich man was there forever. It also says the rich man went to torment for receiving good things in life. I’m pretty sure people aren’t tormented for having good things in life or most of us are in big trouble.

 

[Runningman]

You say that you can punish dead people. The entire rest of the English speaking world says that you can't punish dead people.

If they are dead and unawares you can't do anything to them that would be called punishing them.

If they were executed for a crime that would be their punishment and it would end there. No one ever said they are punished forever because they were executed. They are dead forever yes. But they are not punished forever. That is not proper English. And if you told your students that it was you should have been fired.

The only way that they could be punished forever is spiritual judgment from God whereby they are aware of it forever. And that is a real thing.

Again, punishment is a singular noun. Torment is mental or physical anguish, weeping, wailing, burning, worms eating you, etc so that is more than one punishment. You’re saying those in hell have punishments - plural. That’s false.

It’s Biblically and grammatically impossible for Matthew 25:45 to say what you want it to say because words have meaning and the Bible doesn’t contradict itself.

Your response was unrelated and an attempt to put words in my mouth by saying I think dead people can be punished, something I never said. So your pretense is false and your conclusion is false.

 

[Runningman]

this from oxford dictionary online

the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.
"crime demands just punishment

infliction mean the action that make pain

So eternal punishment mean to make eternal pain

how you impose punishment to death soul
you can not make death soul pain anymore

remember the word eternal mean never ending

Matthew 25:45 uses punishment as a singular noun. Worms eating, burning, weeping, wailing, destruction, and death are plural punishments.

So let’s make this simple:

is Matthew 25:45 correct in saying there is one punishment or is it wrong and there are plural punishments?