And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Actually he makes it clear that they were an example of how they are going to suffer even more punishment after they died.
All three examples that he gives he used to make the point in verse 9 that their souls were going to be punished even further in the Lake of Fire.
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
And this justice of God that he will deliver the godly and that there is an everlasting punishment that awaits the wicked is supposed to give the godly comfort.
The fact that everlasting punishment for the wicked does not give some people comfort could be a sign that they don't understand godliness. The righteous rejoice that God is able to reserve the unjust sodomites to be punished further in the day of judgment than only what they experienced in the OT. There is more in the day of judgment that those same sodomites will experience. It is called the Lake of Fire.
So even now they are reserved in a place of torment called hell, but later on the final judgment they will be cast into the lake of fire and this truth gives hope to the godly who are persecuted by the wicked.
All three examples that he gives he used to make the point in verse 9 that their souls were going to be punished even further in the Lake of Fire.
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
And this justice of God that he will deliver the godly and that there is an everlasting punishment that awaits the wicked is supposed to give the godly comfort.
The fact that everlasting punishment for the wicked does not give some people comfort could be a sign that they don't understand godliness. The righteous rejoice that God is able to reserve the unjust sodomites to be punished further in the day of judgment than only what they experienced in the OT. There is more in the day of judgment that those same sodomites will experience. It is called the Lake of Fire.
So even now they are reserved in a place of torment called hell, but later on the final judgment they will be cast into the lake of fire and this truth gives hope to the godly who are persecuted by the wicked.
In Mark 9:48, when Jesus says, “Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” (ESV), He is quoting from Isaiah 66:24: “They will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” In both texts the word translated as “worm” literally means “grub” or “maggot.” A maggot would have an obvious association with a dump like Gehenna where dead bodies are thrown; however, the maggot Christ speaks of “will not die.”
Taken at face value, this text is one of the most horrific descriptions of what hell is like. The thought of eternal torment, likened to maggots eating away at a rotting corpse, is undoubtedly ghastly. Hell is so awful that Christ said, figuratively speaking, it’s better to cut off the hand that causes you to sin than to end up in hell (Matthew 5:30).
Mark 9:48 does not mean that there are literal worms in hell or that there are worms that live forever; rather, Jesus is teaching the fact of unending suffering in hell—the “worm” never stops causing torment. Notice that the worm is personal. Both Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:48 use the word their to identify the worm’s owner. The sources of torment are attached each to its own host.
Some Bible scholars believe the “worm” refers to a man’s conscience. Those in hell, being completely cut off from God, exist with a nagging, guilty conscience that, like a persistent worm, gnaws away at its victim with a remorse that can never be mitigated. No matter what the word worm refers to, the most important thing to be gained from these words of Christ is that we should do everything in our power to escape the horrors of hell, and there is only one thing to that end—receiving Jesus as the Lord of our lives (John 3:16).
From https://www.gotquestions.org/worm-will-not-die.html
Taken at face value, this text is one of the most horrific descriptions of what hell is like. The thought of eternal torment, likened to maggots eating away at a rotting corpse, is undoubtedly ghastly. Hell is so awful that Christ said, figuratively speaking, it’s better to cut off the hand that causes you to sin than to end up in hell (Matthew 5:30).
Mark 9:48 does not mean that there are literal worms in hell or that there are worms that live forever; rather, Jesus is teaching the fact of unending suffering in hell—the “worm” never stops causing torment. Notice that the worm is personal. Both Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:48 use the word their to identify the worm’s owner. The sources of torment are attached each to its own host.
Some Bible scholars believe the “worm” refers to a man’s conscience. Those in hell, being completely cut off from God, exist with a nagging, guilty conscience that, like a persistent worm, gnaws away at its victim with a remorse that can never be mitigated. No matter what the word worm refers to, the most important thing to be gained from these words of Christ is that we should do everything in our power to escape the horrors of hell, and there is only one thing to that end—receiving Jesus as the Lord of our lives (John 3:16).
From https://www.gotquestions.org/worm-will-not-die.html
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Only the smoke rises forever.
It says the fire is eternal.
The eternal punishment is death. I know you’re familiar with second death verses in Revelation.
That verse applies to three persons. It’s your assumption it applies to all unsaved people.
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the The second death. They won’t be alive to experience any sort of torment.
That refers to two persons. It’s your assumption to say it applies to all unsaved
Thrown into the lake of fire to die again. Let’s be clear about that. They won’t be alive.
I ageee.
That says only the first is eternal.
In the lake of fire they’ll die.
so let’s summarize. You produced verses about eternal fire and smoke rising forever and a verse about three persons being tormented forever, and a verse about eternal punishment which is death.
Do you see none of the verses you provided apply eternal torment to all unsaved?
It says the fire is eternal.
The eternal punishment is death. I know you’re familiar with second death verses in Revelation.
That verse applies to three persons. It’s your assumption it applies to all unsaved people.
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the The second death. They won’t be alive to experience any sort of torment.
That refers to two persons. It’s your assumption to say it applies to all unsaved
Thrown into the lake of fire to die again. Let’s be clear about that. They won’t be alive.
I ageee.
That says only the first is eternal.
In the lake of fire they’ll die.
so let’s summarize. You produced verses about eternal fire and smoke rising forever and a verse about three persons being tormented forever, and a verse about eternal punishment which is death.
Do you see none of the verses you provided apply eternal torment to all unsaved?
Only the smoke rises forever, the torment doesn’t last forever.
That’s your assumption.
Who’s in hell now? Verse?
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. That’s clear. Those who are judged for their sins are put to death, those who are judged by their faith in Christ are given eternal life.
That’s your assumption.
Who’s in hell now? Verse?
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. That’s clear. Those who are judged for their sins are put to death, those who are judged by their faith in Christ are given eternal life.
These verses and many others give anyone a clear understanding.
It is not possible to support the logic that "the smoke of their torment rising forever does not involve their torment lasting forever" from either the Greek Lexical or Syntax or the English either for that matter.
To say that the smoke of their torment ascends forever but there is no one actually in torment is not a logical statement and impossible to be the meaning of the text. The subjects being tormented are the ones producing the smoke. It is not physical, but spiritual and described as smoke, because that is what we can relate to. Whatever this smoke is it is very clear that there are wicked people and the devil and the angles that are in torment and some how this smoke is coming from what is TORMENTING THEM forever and ever and if you attempt to take them out of the statement you have taken from the authors intended meaning. He never would agree to your attempt to remove those being tormented and say that only the smoke is forever but not their being tormented which causes the smoke.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Any attempt to remove the "of their torment" from this statement so that the subjects being tormented are no longer the cause of the smoke that is ascending is an obvious violation of the syntax and most see it as such.
Ask your High School English teacher if you are allowed to read it that way. You would get it wrong in a reading comprehension skills test. Those being tormented are the cause of the smoke. Maybe the fuel of the fire if you will.
It is not possible to support the logic that "the smoke of their torment rising forever does not involve their torment lasting forever" from either the Greek Lexical or Syntax or the English either for that matter.
To say that the smoke of their torment ascends forever but there is no one actually in torment is not a logical statement and impossible to be the meaning of the text. The subjects being tormented are the ones producing the smoke. It is not physical, but spiritual and described as smoke, because that is what we can relate to. Whatever this smoke is it is very clear that there are wicked people and the devil and the angles that are in torment and some how this smoke is coming from what is TORMENTING THEM forever and ever and if you attempt to take them out of the statement you have taken from the authors intended meaning. He never would agree to your attempt to remove those being tormented and say that only the smoke is forever but not their being tormented which causes the smoke.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Any attempt to remove the "of their torment" from this statement so that the subjects being tormented are no longer the cause of the smoke that is ascending is an obvious violation of the syntax and most see it as such.
Ask your High School English teacher if you are allowed to read it that way. You would get it wrong in a reading comprehension skills test. Those being tormented are the cause of the smoke. Maybe the fuel of the fire if you will.
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The worm is a prophetic reference to their judgment. They are a reference to the torment of the subject they are tormenting. It is impossible to remove the subject (the wicked) from the worm doing the tormenting. If the worm never stops tormenting then the subject being tormented never stops being tormented.
All these illogical attempts you try at not accepting what the author intended and coming up impossible options are not allowed. You are just babbling incoherent nonsense like a small child trying to argue with an English teacher about the meaning of sentences. She won't allow you to change the rules and she will mark your paper wrong no matter how much you try to come up with wild ideas about how the ones being tormented are not involved in the worms.
All these illogical attempts you try at not accepting what the author intended and coming up impossible options are not allowed. You are just babbling incoherent nonsense like a small child trying to argue with an English teacher about the meaning of sentences. She won't allow you to change the rules and she will mark your paper wrong no matter how much you try to come up with wild ideas about how the ones being tormented are not involved in the worms.
As an English teacher, I can confidently say that smoke rising forever doesn’t imply eternal torment. The bodies are being burned after their second death and there are a lot of bodies, too. This is less about reading comprehension and more about Bible illlteracy.
Revelation 20:14,15
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire to undergo a second death. We’re talking about possibly billions of bodies being burned. Effectually, the smoke will rise forever.
Revelation 2:11 introduces the fact that the second death will have pain involved, but it isn’t permanent. The pain is a separate experience to the second death. Death is a permanent end to life.
Revelation 2:11
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Also, you should note, “smoke rising forever” is poetic language called apocalyptic language and it isn’t literal in Isaiah 34.
Isaiah 34:9,10
9Edom’s streams will be turned to tar,
and her soil to sulfur;
her land will become a blazing pitch.
10It will not be quenched—day or night.
Its smoke will ascend forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever again pass through it.
so important questions. Is Edom still burning? Is there smoke rising forever there? Has no one passed through it again? The answers to all of those questions are no.
Now reconsider what you just said about it being impossible to have smoke that rises forever unless there is eternal torment. Those two things are not mutually exclusive according to the Bible, English grammar, or logic.
Revelation 20:14,15
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire to undergo a second death. We’re talking about possibly billions of bodies being burned. Effectually, the smoke will rise forever.
Revelation 2:11 introduces the fact that the second death will have pain involved, but it isn’t permanent. The pain is a separate experience to the second death. Death is a permanent end to life.
Revelation 2:11
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Also, you should note, “smoke rising forever” is poetic language called apocalyptic language and it isn’t literal in Isaiah 34.
Isaiah 34:9,10
9Edom’s streams will be turned to tar,
and her soil to sulfur;
her land will become a blazing pitch.
10It will not be quenched—day or night.
Its smoke will ascend forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever again pass through it.
so important questions. Is Edom still burning? Is there smoke rising forever there? Has no one passed through it again? The answers to all of those questions are no.
Now reconsider what you just said about it being impossible to have smoke that rises forever unless there is eternal torment. Those two things are not mutually exclusive according to the Bible, English grammar, or logic.
The verses about worms not dying doesn’t imply the subjects of the worms don’t die. The worms don’t die because they have billions of bodies to eat. How do immortal worms live in fire anyway? I think that’s figurative language.
I got a small chuckle out of that. It’s clear you have a knack for ad hominems. The fact is you have failed using Biblical texts to prove they are alive experiencing eternal torment via fire or worms. The Bible just doesn’t say that, your projection of eternal torment into the Bible is all you’ve shown here.
I got a small chuckle out of that. It’s clear you have a knack for ad hominems. The fact is you have failed using Biblical texts to prove they are alive experiencing eternal torment via fire or worms. The Bible just doesn’t say that, your projection of eternal torment into the Bible is all you’ve shown here.
Yes it is true that the smoke of the wicked of Edom will ascend forever and ever. There is an eternal judgment that is promised to Edom that is beyond the natural condition of her ancient towns. So it is true that her smoke ascends forever because the souls of the wicked of Edom and those who were destroyed in Sodom are reserved in hell and will be punished further when they are cast into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment will ascend forever and ever.
Then in that day you will know that YES both the smoke of their torment and their torment will ascend forever and ever.
Then in that day you will know that YES both the smoke of their torment and their torment will ascend forever and ever.