And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

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Mar 4, 2020
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Destroy not die

car accident destroy may hand but doctor fix it

God able to destroy that verse do not say God will kill the soul
The word destroy in Matthew 10:28 is taken from a Greek word that means “destroy fully.” If something is destroyed fully by fire then there’s nothing left except smoke and ashes. If God destroys a body and soul then that kills it.

Your hand wasn’t destroyed, it was damaged.
 
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Butter wouldn't melt. :rolleyes:

"Trying to turn the church upside down" was me using hyperbole for the purpose of driving the point home.
And STILL you don't get it. Your first post in this thread was an accusation of the whole church from it's beginning
with a false claim that Jesus' teaching on eternal punishment was a later interpolation.






Here again. I don't accept your revision of church history, nor of sound doctrine.
I don’t accept your revision of what is orthodox Christianity nor your doctrines either.

You know in Christianity I think we end up disagreeing a lot more than we agree. Perhaps we agree on the core things for the most part, but I don’t think the fate of the unsaved is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on in good conscience.

The church telling people they’re going to hell and will suffer eternal torment is wrong and directly effects the image of the church and it’s attractiveness.

There are people who probably would be a Christian if they weren’t horrified at how the faith is represented. That’s a big problem if Christian is repulsing people.

So I think after all that has been said and done here, you should take a more neutral approach to this topic, as in you don’t know. You don’t have any clear verses that directly say “all those without Jesus will be tormented forever.”

That being said, it’s safer to not spread misinformation about God’s plan.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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The word destroy in Matthew 10:28 is taken from a Greek word that means “destroy fully.” If something is destroyed fully by fire then there’s nothing left except smoke and ashes. If God destroys a body and soul then that kills it.

Your hand wasn’t destroyed, it was damaged.
καταστρέφω from greek dictionary

ἀπολέσαι from interlinked bible


from interlinked bible

ἀπολέσαι. online dictionary say it mean Mean you get lost

what dictionary you use give me a link
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Any why the verse do not say God will destroy fully

it say able to destroy

it fully or not it doesn’t matter it not say will, it say able
 
Mar 4, 2020
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καταστρέφω from greek dictionary

ἀπολέσαι from interlinked bible


from interlinked bible

ἀπολέσαι. online dictionary say it mean Mean you get lost

what dictionary you use give me a link
I’m referencing a Strong’s Greek lexicon:

destroy
ἀπολέσαι (apolesai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's Greek 622: From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully, literally or figuratively.

And here’s a link to what I am looking at:

https://biblehub.com/strongs/matthew/10-28.htm
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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I don’t accept your revision of what is orthodox Christianity nor your doctrines either.

You know in Christianity I think we end up disagreeing a lot more than we agree. Perhaps we agree on the core things for the most part, but I don’t think the fate of the unsaved is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on in good conscience.

The church telling people they’re going to hell and will suffer eternal torment is wrong and directly effects the image of the church and it’s attractiveness.

There are people who probably would be a Christian if they weren’t horrified at how the faith is represented. That’s a big problem if Christian is repulsing people.

So I think after all that has been said and done here, you should take a more neutral approach to this topic, as in you don’t know. You don’t have any clear verses that directly say “all those without Jesus will be tormented forever.”

That being said, it’s safer to not spread misinformation about God’s plan.
You are so out of line. I know what Orthodoxy is. That's one reason I know you are peddling deception.
The other is that you are blatantly contradicting Jesus' own words.
You take your position of compromise with the world. I'm not following.


And I'm not talking to you about this anymore.

 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I’m referencing a Strong’s Greek lexicon:

destroy
ἀπολέσαι (apolesai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's Greek 622: From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully, literally or figuratively.

And here’s a link to what I am looking at:

https://biblehub.com/strongs/matthew/10-28.htm
able to destroy fully, not will destroy fully

jesus able to kill good people do not mean will do

able to do not always mean will do
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I didn’t claim non-entities can be punished.
You admitted that the punishment will be eternal, as Matt 25:46 says. You also say that the soul wil no long exist, which will be the punishment.

So figure out what you believe. You can't have both. Unless you admit to being confused and contradicted.

I never said this either. I said they are put to death. after death they aren’t experiencing anything. The eternal punishment is death.
That's not "eternal". When the soul ceases to exist, the whatever punishment is over. For the punishment to be eternal, the soul must experience it for eternity.

That’s ironic since you’re the one who holds a non-Christian view on the fate of the unsaved.
Nope. Straight from the Bible.

Atheists are partially correct, but they don’t know they’ll be resurrected, judged, then die again. According to the Bible, atheists fall into the unsaved category and they’ll be destroyed for eternity.
They have NONE of it correct. In fact, the Bible describes them as FOOLS in Psa 14:1 and 53:1.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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able to destroy fully, not will destroy fully

jesus able to kill good people do not mean will do

able to do not always mean will do
Exactly, God has set the order of the universe. He works within his own parameters.
He doesn't get everything he wants.

For example he doesn't want anyone to perish he wants all to repent. But according to prophey
that doesn't happen.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The word destroy in Matthew 10:28 is taken from a Greek word that means “destroy fully.” If something is destroyed fully by fire then there’s nothing left except smoke and ashes. If God destroys a body and soul then that kills it.

Your hand wasn’t destroyed, it was damaged.
How do you know a soul can burn up competely. The word means more than your narrowly chosen meaning. And it refers to the body.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Exactly, God has set the order of the universe. He works within his own parameters.
He doesn't get everything he wants.


For example he doesn't want anyone to perish he wants all to repent. But according to prophey that doesn't happen.
Yep I never read a verse Jesus want or will kill the soul, soul live forever some in heaven some in hell
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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You admitted that the punishment will be eternal, as Matt 25:46 says. You also say that the soul wil no long exist, which will be the punishment.

So figure out what you believe. You can't have both. Unless you admit to being confused and contradicted.


That's not "eternal". When the soul ceases to exist, the whatever punishment is over. For the punishment to be eternal, the soul must experience it for eternity.


Nope. Straight from the Bible.


They have NONE of it correct. In fact, the Bible describes them as FOOLS in Psa 14:1 and 53:1.
I'm trying to figure out whenever is an Athiest right about the God of the Bible :)
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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I’m referencing a Strong’s Greek lexicon:

destroy
ἀπολέσαι (apolesai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's Greek 622: From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully, literally or figuratively.

And here’s a link to what I am looking at:

https://biblehub.com/strongs/matthew/10-28.htm

Thayer and BDAG are better Lexicons

Tell me were the chief priests and scribes going to trying to vaporize Jesus, did they have the technology back then to extinguish matter and energy?

47 And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people sought to destroy him; Luke 19:47

So the scribes and the Pharisees were able to break the first Law of Thermodynamics?

I am thinking that if "destroyed" meant to break the First Law of Thermodynamics in any part of Scripture God would have had a very specific word for it starting in the OT.

Destroyed does not speak to the nature of the destruction, annihilation does, they are not interchangeable.

Annihilate means to cease to exist.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Figuratively.

So, there's that.
You would prefer the figurative interpretation since that serves you better, but the problem with that is you don’t get to decide what is figure or literal. Once you open up that can of worms, really we can start making everything in the Bible figurative. Hell dan be figurative, punishment can be figurative. See how that works? Don’t be intellectually dishonest.
 
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Thayer and BDAG are better Lexicons

Tell me were the chief priests and scribes going to trying to vaporize Jesus, did they have the technology back then to extinguish matter and energy?

47 And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people sought to destroy him; Luke 19:47

So the scribes and the Pharisees were able to break the first Law of Thermodynamics?

I am thinking that if "destroyed" meant to break the First Law of Thermodynamics in any part of Scripture God would have had a very specific word for it starting in the OT.

Destroyed does not speak to the nature of the destruction, annihilation does, they are not interchangeable.

Annihilate means to cease to exist.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, but I didn’t say annihilate; however, it means the same thing. It doesn’t mean breaking laws of nature if something is destroyed.

You’re reaching pretty far to make seem like the illogical conclusion to reach when the plain text of the Bible says destroy.

Do these verses make it clearer?

James 4:12
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy

Philippians 3:18-19
18 “For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
 
Mar 4, 2020
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able to destroy fully, not will destroy fully

jesus able to kill good people do not mean will do

able to do not always mean will do
Do you realize Matthew 10:28 is just a single verse? I wanted to just show the fact that the soul can be destroyed using a verse that contains the word soul. I know if I show something without the word soul, you’ll have people saying that it doesn’t apply to the soul.

However, the Bible has dozens of examples of guaranteed death and destruction of the wicked.

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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Thayer and BDAG are better Lexicons

Tell me were the chief priests and scribes going to trying to vaporize Jesus, did they have the technology back then to extinguish matter and energy?

47 And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people sought to destroy him; Luke 19:47

So the scribes and the Pharisees were able to break the first Law of Thermodynamics?

I am thinking that if "destroyed" meant to break the First Law of Thermodynamics in any part of Scripture God would have had a very specific word for it starting in the OT.

Destroyed does not speak to the nature of the destruction, annihilation does, they are not interchangeable.

Annihilate means to cease to exist.
yep and we don’t have evident that soul turn to nothing by fire
 
Mar 4, 2020
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How do you know a soul can burn up competely. The word means more than your narrowly chosen meaning. And it refers to the body.
No it refers to the soul body. The flesh body is a different thing.