And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

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kleronomos said:
How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?
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You won’t get a rounding applause from the “church” on this matter. They’ll attack you again and again. The truth is what you said. Many well-meaning Christians will discredit you. Stay strong in the face of persecution for your reward in heaven is great.
 
I think the stumbling block for many is that it seems unfair that people who were deceived by the Devil and wind up in hell have to stay there for eternity.

I heard a brother share on some verses in Leviticus, if you are a thief and you get caught you have to repay 7 fold. I think the Bible is far more concerned with souls than with inanimate objects.

So yes, let's say Satan deceives a million people, he will have to pay back 7 million. That means that many people who were not deceived must also be paid back along with those that were.

This is where I think the 1,000 years comes in and the rebellion that Satan has at the end of the 1,000 years. Many people who were paid back to God from Satan, the deceiver, will be exposed a second time and that is when they will be tossed into the lake of fire.

During this seven years of tribulation we will reveal those that love the Lord, those that are faithful to the Lord, the 144,000, and the Jews who are observant.

Everyone else, and it will be the majority of people, will not fall into these categories. However, since a good percentage of them were deceived by Satan through fraud I suspect there will be a very large number that will be given a second chance.

God is merciful. He doesn't want any to perish and He is righteous. To me that means no one will go into the lake of fire unless they have absolutely, undeniably and beyond any reasonable doubt chosen that path.
 
Magenta said:
That speaks of the resurrection of the saved. What about those who are lost? They are not raised imperishable.
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EXACTLY!!

They are raised perishable. Just like Lazarus was. And they will DIE again, just like Lazarus did. Except their second death will be in the LOF when their bodies burn up, destroyed. Lazarus simply died again and his body returned to the grave, awaiting resurrection of a glorified body.

Remember the Jews were plotting to kill him again? If he was raised imperishable, wouldn't the context have made that clear?
 
Runningman said:
You won’t get a rounding applause from the “church” on this matter. They’ll attack you again and again. The truth is what you said. Many well-meaning Christians will discredit you. Stay strong in the face of persecution for your reward in heaven is great.
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What if both of you are wrong?

When I enter eternity and should find that God will destroy the souls of unbelievers, I will merely shrug and say, "Well, I guess I was wrong".

What will be your response when you enter eternity and should find that God will eternally torment the unbelievers?
 
FreeGrace2 said:
What if both of you are wrong?

When I enter eternity and should find that God will destroy the souls of unbelievers, I will merely shrug and say, "Well, I guess I was wrong".

What will be your response when you enter eternity and should find that God will eternally torment the unbelievers?
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The difference between you and me is I have the benefit of having a conversation with God now. Glory to God. This is just a difference between the gifts we’ve been given. I hope you want it too.

I wouldn’t be here preaching unless I was given a directive from heaven to do it. That explains everything.
 
Runningman said:
The difference between you and me is I have the benefit of having a conversation with God now. Glory to God. This is just a difference between the gifts we’ve been given. I hope you want it too.
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Where is this gift described in the Bible?

I wouldn’t be here preaching unless I was given a directive from heaven to do it. That explains everything.
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There could be another.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Where is this gift described in the Bible?

There could be another.

I didn't say I didn't. I haven't seen a gift listed in the Bible about 'speaking to God'.

Why didn't you just quote it if there is one? Why the hesitation?

Do you have one?
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that’s curious seeing that you’re so well-studied in the Bible but don’t understand what is being said now.
 
Runningman said:
The difference between you and me is I have the benefit of having a conversation with God now. Glory to God. This is just a difference between the gifts we’ve been given. I hope you want it too.

I wouldn’t be here preaching unless I was given a directive from heaven to do it. That explains everything.
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OK. Just to clarify, you are saying "Thus saith The Lord." ?
You have the gift of prophecy and you are telling us what God (Yahweh) is saying about eternal torment?
 
Runningman said:
The difference between you and me is I have the benefit of having a conversation with God now. Glory to God. This is just a difference between the gifts we’ve been given. I hope you want it too.

I wouldn’t be here preaching unless I was given a directive from heaven to do it. That explains everything.
Lucy-Pevensie said:
OK. Just to clarify, you are saying "Thus saith The Lord." ?
You have the gift of prophecy and you are telling us what God (Yahweh) is saying about eternal torment?
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No, he said he "talks to God", and mentioned a "gift". But he won't share the verse. I wonder why?
 
FreeGrace2 said:
Now you're just stalling. OK, so you don't actually have a verse about your "gift". OK.
Runningman said:
So you have nothing to support your false doctrine. Just a bunch of hot air and nonsense.
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Well, you certainly do have a knack for stalling. All I asked for was a verse that describes your gift.

What have I gotten? 3 posts from you with NO verse quoted or cited. As I thought.

This is what you initially said:

The difference between you and me is I have the benefit of having a conversation with God now. Glory to God. This is just a difference between the gifts we’ve been given. I hope you want it too.

I wouldn’t be here preaching unless I was given a directive from heaven to do it. That explains everything.

Sounds like you've got something special. So special it isn't even in the Bible.

Well, good on you.
 
FreeGrace2 said:
EXACTLY!!

They are raised perishable. Just like Lazarus was. And they will DIE again, just like Lazarus did. Except their second death will be in the LOF when their bodies burn up, destroyed. Lazarus simply died again and his body returned to the grave, awaiting resurrection of a glorified body.

Remember the Jews were plotting to kill him again? If he was raised imperishable, wouldn't the context have made that clear?
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They are raised perishable and then perish in the 2nd death. You can't seem to make your mind up on this. Curious.

What is imperishable is the Word of God, and this indwells believers. Non-
believers do not have this. They perish, just as multiple Scriptures attest.
 
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