Essentially, God's very Name is "Presence," and there is no existence apart from Him so, why wouldn't it make sense that to go from His presence translates to going from existence into non-existence?
And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
- Thread starter kleronomos
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Whereas the only power satan has is to destroy, God has both the power to create (and I mean in the sense 'out of nothing' rather than manipulating what God has already created) and destroy and it isn't beyond God's character to destroy what He had created.
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you think John was using "the same poetic device" when He wrote Rev 20:10, or Jesus, when He said Matt 25:46?
Do you think John was using "the same poetic device" when He wrote Rev 20:10, or Jesus, when He said Matt 25:46?
How about very nearly impossible?
Based on scripture, it doesn't sound like those outside are non-existent.
Rev 22
4 ‘Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates
into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone
who loves and practises falsehood.
Not really. In Job, we see that Satan had the power to create a wind strong enough to collapse a building where ALL of Job's children were attending, and were killed. And Satan killed ALL of Job's cattle, etc, basically all his wealth.
And then, Satan had the power over physiology, to give Job the worst case ever of full body shingles, possibly. Or at least, full body boils.
I have no doubt that God is able to create ex nihilio (out of nothing) and to vaporize whatever He wants. The Bible SAYS He is able to destroy. OK.
But, the only real question is, does the Bible plainly give evidence that He does or will cause souls to cease to exist?
I find evidence to the contrary. That unbelievers (conscious souls) will experience eternal punishment, in Matt 25:46. And that unbelievers will be tormented day and night for ever and ever in Rev 20:10.
I find these 2 related verses to be iron clad.
I wonder what proponents of eternal conscious torment do with verses wherein God proclaims
He is making all things new... and that those things which can be shaken will not remain.
The plethora of verses that proclaim the destruction of the wicked all get
swept under the rug in favor of their meagre verses that seem to contradict.
Your assumption is that God causes never ending-torment for all unsaved. You don’t have a verse that clearly supports your doctrine.
Given where this verse is found in Revelation, the unbelivevers have already been dispatched to the LOF. So it doesn't refer to them.
One thing is cetainly possible. John was referring to what will remain on the new earth. It won't be unbelievers.
I haven't swept anything under the rug. I've been explaining to Runningman that all the verses he quotes refer to the bodily destruction of unbelievers, who will experience physical death TWICE.
The word "soul" in Hebrew and Greek lexicons show the word is used to mean "the person", "the individual".
I’ll never admit that at this point. When I was an immature Christian I believed in what you do, but then I read the Bible. The Bible is quite conclusive on the final destination of the unsaved: it’s death of the soul and body.
Please explain what part of Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10 is an assumption?
That is a delirious statement. Take your temp. Just look above. You haven't proven it means anything else.
I take them at face value. You can fantasize all you want.
FreeGrace2 said:
The only "progress" we need to see is of the impossibility of tormenting someone who isn't there, doesn't exist.
Tormenting is an experience, a very unpleasant one. If a person is vaporized and no longer exists, there is nothing to experience.
Now, if you would admit that, there would be progress.
The only "progress" we need to see is of the impossibility of tormenting someone who isn't there, doesn't exist.
Tormenting is an experience, a very unpleasant one. If a person is vaporized and no longer exists, there is nothing to experience.
Now, if you would admit that, there would be progress.
Of course you won't. You are too emotionally invested in your own opinion.
Oh, stop making knuckleheaded snipes. as if. Grow up.
You can't unprove Matt 25:46 or Rev 20:10. But you can fantasize.
Exactly. They no longer exist. However in the theology of ECT, they are carried over to be tormented forever after.
Heaven and earth is symbolic of the temple in Jerusalem which was destroyed as Jesus predicted.
I highly doubt it. It is before everything is made new.
Hebrews 12:26,27
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven…
Matt 25:46 is about death being an everlasting punishment. Rev 20:10 is about three persons. Your assumption is that the punishment is hellfire and eternal wailing that applies to everyone.
However, I can show a wall of text from the Bible that says the unsaved are destroyed or put to death; you can’t do that to help your beliefs. Your argument doesn’t align with the Biblical texts. That means you are wrong.
