And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Runningman]

What kind of "immortality" are they given, they certainly cannot have "everlasting life" > "aionios zoe" since they were not believers when they died?

Exactly. They get no immortality in any way. That’s a reward for the righteous.

 

[HeIsHere]

Exactly. They get no immortality in any way. That’s a reward for the righteous.

See this is where the logic fails, the unbeliever needs to have existence of some kind after physical death to be judged and annihilated by God, so how does that work?

Are they are given immortality for a short time in order to be punished first and then put out of existence?

 

[Magenta]

See this is where the logic fails, the unbeliever needs to have existence of some kind after physical death to be judged and annihilated by God, so how does that work?

Are they are given immortality for a short time in order to be punished first and then put out of existence?

Do you not believe in the resurrection of all at the end of this age?

How is that a logic fail?

 

[Runningman]

See this is where the logic fails, the unbeliever needs to have existence of some kind after physical death to be judged and annihilated by God, so how does that work?

Are they are given immortality for a short time in order to be punished first and then put out of existence?

John 5:29 says there are two resurrections:

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

They’re resurrected, judged, then cast into the lake of fire to have a second death. Their resurrection is temporary in order to judge them, it isn’t for the purpose of immortality.

 

[Thewatchman]

I think you disagree with some parts of the Bible but you don’t realize it. From what I can see, you hold contradictory views about what is cultic and what is Biblical. The Bible teaches the soul can die, the soul is that sins will die, the wages of sin is death, etc. if a cult agrees with that then that doesn’t make the word of God cultic. Sometimes cults do hold true doctrines .



Well no it’s a Biblical view. Don’t some of those cults also believe in Jesus to be the Son of God? Yes. However, Jesus being the Son of God is not a cult view. I believe you want to associate me with a cult because you don’t want me to look credible because that helps your effort to discredit me.

You seem to think majority rules. I don’t think that’s the case on this point. Most of the mainstream church is completely wrong about hell.

Something you might want to thank about is something pastor says all the time when answering questions is please do not ask a question about a cretin pastor, religion ect. He says it is not our place to judge them. We do have the right to judge doctrine. Rapture false doctrine, flesh bodies will be in the millennial kingdom, or as we have been talking about people will be tormented for ever and ever false doctrine . . . Just a thought I am not going to judge you personally but if you were to try and convince me that the rapture is true I would not just tell you “you are crazy” but I would point you to scripture Ezekiel 13, 2nd Thessalonians 2 ect. Just food for thought.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Peter 2:6
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned themwith an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The word of God clearly states the cities were destroyed and the people condemned to serve as an example of what happens to ungodly people. The Bible teaches that unsaved people are destroyed.

I am happy to repeat the truth here. Unsaved people WILL BE destroyed. Again. Their bodies will die AGAIN. This isn't hard to grasp.

Do you realize that saved people will never be destroyed. Neither body or soul. Only unbelievers will have their bodies destroyed. Twice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Exactly. They get no immortality in any way. That’s a reward for the righteous.

That isn't true at all. Eternal life is a gift. Rom 6:23. Rewards are EARNED, by definition. Gifts CANNOT be earned, by definition.

consciousness isn't 'immortality'. It is simply awareness. An awareness of their eternal torment. It isn't life at all. But it will be experienced.

 

[Runningman]

That isn't true at all. Eternal life is a gift. Rom 6:23. Rewards are EARNED, by definition. Gifts CANNOT be earned, by definition.

consciousness isn't 'immortality'. It is simply awareness. An awareness of their eternal torment. It isn't life at all. But it will be experienced.

I take it you aren’t aware that the Bible teaches the saved receive rewards.

Your definition of immortality is false and and not supported by any biblical texts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I take it you aren’t aware that the Bible teaches the saved receive rewards.

I take it that YOU aren't aware that the saved receive rewards THAT ARE EARNED.

Check any dictionary for the difference between gifts and rewards. It will do you good.

Your definition of immortality is false and and not supported by any biblical texts.

Thank you for your opinion. I didn't define immortality. I described the existence of a soul after the GWT judgement.

I never said the unbeliever's soul is immortal. Since the soul will be in what is called the SECOND DEATH, the soul is in a state of perpetual and eternal DEATH. We have a very limited understanding of "death" since from our perspective, physical death is quite finite. It is difficult to apply eternity to death. But that's what the Bible says.

Why is that difficult to comprehend for you?

 

[Runningman]

I never said the unbeliever's soul is immortal.

I’ll take it. You finally admit the soul is not unconditionally immortal. Let’s call that progress.

 

[Runningman]

I take it that YOU aren't aware that the saved receive rewards THAT ARE EARNED.

Check any dictionary for the difference between gifts and rewards. It will do you good.


Thank you for your opinion. I didn't define immortality. I described the existence of a soul after the GWT judgement.

I never said the unbeliever's soul is immortal. Since the soul will be in what is called the SECOND DEATH, the soul is in a state of perpetual and eternal DEATH. We have a very limited understanding of "death" since from our perspective, physical death is quite finite. It is difficult to apply eternity to death. But that's what the Bible says.

Why is that difficult to comprehend for you?

You seem to come close to finally admitting that the soul of the unsaved is not immortal. That’s progress and I’ll take that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’ll take it. You finally admit the soul is not unconditionally immortal. Let’s call that progress.

The only "progress" we need to see is of the impossibility of tormenting someone who isn't there, doesn't exist.

Tormenting is an experience, a very unpleasant one. If a person is vaporized and no longer exists, there is nothing to experience.

Now, if you would admit that, there would be progress.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You seem to come close to finally admitting that the soul of the unsaved is not immortal. That’s progress and I’ll take that.

Just be sure to realize that punishment, like torment, requires the presence of the person involved. iow, they have to be there.

 

[Runningman]

Just be sure to realize that punishment, like torment, requires the presence of the person involved. iow, they have to be there.

be honest, if you had proof for your flimsy man made doctrine you’d have quoted a wall of verses like I do. You have nothing man. Just a bunch of projection and assumptions.

 

[Mem]

Just be sure to realize that punishment, like torment, requires the presence of the person involved. iow, they have to be there.

Isaiah 34 employs the same poetic device concerning the fate of Edom saying, "...her land will become a burning pitch. It will not be quenched--day or night. It's smoke will ascend forever (Isaiah 34: 9b-10)." So yes, we can be sure the presence is involved but we can't be so sure that the presence continues for ever and ever.

 

[Magenta]

Isaiah 34 employs the same poetic device concerning the fate of Edom saying, "...her land will become a burning pitch. It will not be quenched--day or night. It's smoke will ascend forever (Isaiah 34: 9b-10)." So yes, we can be sure the presence is involved but we can't be so sure that the presence continues for ever and ever.

"Forever"

 

[FreeGrace2]

be honest, if you had proof for your flimsy man made doctrine you’d have quoted a wall of verses like I do.

Your opinion of that "wall of verses" collapsed when I explained that they all referred to physical death.

You have nothing man.

I have the Bible. Matt 25:46 is very clear that there will be an eternal punishment. But, you, you claim that punishment can be inflicted on a non-entity. That is bizarre. Not much different than sticking pins in dolls trying to make someone else suffer. Try sticking the pin IN the person. Forget the doll.

Just a bunch of projection and assumptions.

Thank you for your opinion. You do have a lot of them.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Isaiah 34 employs the same poetic device concerning the fate of Edom saying, "...her land will become a burning pitch. It will not be quenched--day or night. It's smoke will ascend forever (Isaiah 34: 9b-10)." So yes, we can be sure the presence is involved but we can't be so sure that the presence continues for ever and ever.

Why not? Why would a spirit cease to exist?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Isaiah 34 employs the same poetic device concerning the fate of Edom saying, "...her land will become a burning pitch. It will not be quenched--day or night. It's smoke will ascend forever (Isaiah 34: 9b-10)." So yes, we can be sure the presence is involved but we can't be so sure that the presence continues for ever and ever.

Do you think John was using "the same poetic device" when He wrote Rev 20:10, or Jesus, when He said Matt 25:46?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why not? Why would a spirit cease to exist?

I would imagine to soften the heart of those who just can't imagine that God would cause never ending torment.