Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[BillG]

Why don't you people start a new thread if this is what you want to discuss? This thread is about baptism.

It's called talking and engaging and getting to know each other.

Maybe try it rather than be aggressive.

 

[BillG]

Why don't you people start a new thread if this is what you want to discuss? This thread is about baptism.

And if you had read the thread then you would have seen that it was about baptism and it's mode.

 

[Wansvic]

It's astounding how people will jump through hoops, climb the tallest trees and hang upside down whislin' Dixie just to prove their doctrines in the Bible. Bro, the thief on the cross died right next to Jesus and, correct me if I'm wrong but, the time period of Jesus' life is recorded in and by the New Testament in the Book of Luke. The thief ain't even mentioned in the OT. Besides that, salvation has always always been by grace through faith, all the way back to Adam. Now, what bible verse did you get this belief from? Ok I see it...just a minute

The NT began on the Day of Pentecost when Jesus shed forth the Holy Ghost after His death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 2)

 

[Wansvic]

The word of God in Acts doesn't say they were baptized in water in Jesus' name concerning the Disciples in Ephesus Paul met.

The baptism of Jesus is the Holy Spirit as it says in the Gospel of John chapter 1:33

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water,
the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. That baptism of the Holy Spirit is not done by water. It is done by God.

Notice the group was baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in verse 5, and it wasn't until afterward in verse 6 that the group received the Holy Ghost when Paul laid hands on them.

"And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

Also as mentioned in my previous post, being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus pertains to water baptism. Peter clarified this in Acts 10:47-48:
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord."

Peter's words in the above referenced scripture also proves the baptism mentioned in Acts 2:38 is also water baptism.

 

[Wansvic]

Brother, that doesn't even mention "baptism". Salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation from what? Sin, self and Hell! One gets saved by turning from sin/self to Jesus by faith. ALL of salvation takes place in your heart. A blind, deaf, mute, quadriplegic who can't do anything can trust Jesus in his heart. If you try to get saved by any other way it is "works". Back to the thief, He simply said (paraphrased) "I deserve the punishment I'm getting"...."Lord remember me when thou comest to thy Kingdom. By those simple words he showed that he FULLY BELIEVED that he was doomed, that he deserved it, that Jesus was God Almighty, and was his only hope! You say he didn't say all that? Yesseree he did. That will get a person saved

What Jesus prophesied in Luke 24:47 is seen in Peter's initial message to the Jews in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost when he gave the following instruction, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ...(Acts 2:38)

 

[Dirtman]

Saying these things like baptism is a work of man is equal to saying that if a man is driving a truck in a field and he puts a toddler to stand in his lap and put his on the steering wheel that the toddler is driving the truck.
Way to much emphasis on us and our abilities and not enough on the joy of a Father taking his child into his hands.

 

[Wansvic]

Wansvic cited these verses in post #742...

Acts 10:47-48, Peter said: “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

... to show that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

If you read these verses, the people discussed had already received the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. It therefore proves that water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost are both necessary parts of the NT rebirth. This truth is confirmed by the conversion records of all groups of humanity; Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles and individuals such as Paul and the Ephesus disciples. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) Some received the Holy Ghost prior to obedience to water baptism, while others received the Holy Ghost after water baptism in the name of Jesus. What all of these experiences have in common is both water and the Holy Ghost were involved. Consider how they parallel what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5.

 

[Wansvic]

Just curious which baptism were Jesus and His disciples performing in John 3? Baptism of repentance or baptism in the name of Jesus?

John 3:22
22After this, Jesus and His disciples went into the Judean countryside, where He spent some time with them and baptized.

Paul answered that in Acts 19, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him,..." Keep in mind that when John began his ministry of baptizing many had no idea that Jesus was the messiah. And none knew He would die, be buried and resurrect.

Also, prior to Jesus ascending, He said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name beginning in Jerusalem. Therefore no one could have been water baptized in His name prior to that. And as scripture reflects Peter first mentioned the need to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sins on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Wansvic]

"Obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin was begun on the Day of Pentecost" is false doctrine.
The Bible Dictionary defines remission as "Sins are remitted when the offender is treated as though the offense had never been committed." If water baptism achieved remission of sin then there was/is no need for Jesus to have died. According to this doctrine, all one has to do is be baptized in water and their sins are forgiven.

Being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sins is dependent upon Jesus' sacrifice. If a person asks to be baptized and does not believe and trust in Jesus and His sacrifice, they do nothing but get wet. As Jesus stated in Mark 16:15-16 those who don't believe are damned.

Also, consider what Ananias told Paul concerning baptism and it's purpose:

"And he (Ananias) said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:14-16

 

[Wansvic]

Even though this has nothing to do with the OP...

God is manifest in three different ways -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three separate persons. Now how about we return to the OP subject: is baptism necessary for salvation.

The post was about water baptism. We are commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus because in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[peldom10]

Actually, it is you who is saying Jesus is wrong.

Jesus is the water of life. We who drink of him shall NEVER thirst.

You can take a giant gulp of the liquid water you believe will save you as you are immersed beneath it. And if you're thirsty in that moment your thirst may be quenched.

But when you rise out of that water you're not in Salvation.
You're just wet.

Your Catholic church is wrong and corrupt in denying grace and faith alone save.

We are saved by grace through faith. And those are gifts from God.

Works do not save. Thinking you have to add liquid water immersion to God's free irrevocable gift of salvation by grace and faith is a work of man, to secure the grace of God to be saved.

And that's a lie! That calls the Gospel false.

All those verses you pasted don't prove works save.

They prove you don't understand.

Acts 10:44-48

All in that passage were saved already.

We can be baptized after we have come into faith by God's grace. We're then symbolically burying the old "I am'' who was without Christ and his indwelling holy spirit. And when we arise from that water ''I am'' reborn in Christ. It's a symbolic rite that imitates Jesus death and resurrection.
He was laid in the tomb having taken the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. And he resurrected in a glorified body.
Jesus was and is the water of life. Perfect and sinless.

What you and those like you can't seem to understand is everyone who is baptized has accepted Christ as savior first! They believe! By grace they are saved! First!

Baptism comes, if it comes, afterward.

Baptism does not save.

We are saved the moment we believe.

God ordained that an eternal irrevocable fact.

And your works doctrine will never change that.
That you don't realize faith comes before Baptism and people are saved by faith is quite frankly mind boggling. It's basic gospel 101.

Yet you insist you don't know that with every post where you argue baptism is mandatory to save us.

You don't know. And we see that, post after post by you and all who are like you.
Those who insist without liquid water immersion salvation does not exist in that person who has faith in Christ.

That's not just wrong. It's dead wrong.

You can narrate all you wish that does not change God's word.
Just show me scriptures that baptism is not required.

I can tell you do not understand being ...saved. ...vs born again....also.

Suggest you study the Bible...KJV 1611 edition.

 

[Wansvic]

See my post #754, immediately above.

Please feel free to skip the posts you don't think pertain to the subject.

 

[Wansvic]

Yes I did read it.
Did not you see my favourite quote of his that I posted?

Yes I did. It is a great quote! I produced some magnets years ago with that quote. It sure hit home with people.

 

[Wansvic]

Baptism is a rite that states symbolically that one is burying the old, sinful "man", then rising again as a new person in Christ.

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Romans 6:4 It is not necessary for salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

In this case, baptism is a "work"; it doesn't not save.

Notice what Paul states in verses 3 and 6: Those who were baptized into Jesus were baptized into his death. The old man is crucified with Jesus that the body of sin might be destroyed. (God did that)

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[CS1]

Notice the group was baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in verse 5, and it wasn't until afterward in verse 6 that the group received the Holy Ghost when Paul laid hands on them.

"And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

Also as mentioned in my previous post, being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus pertains to water baptism. Peter clarified this in Acts 10:47-48:
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord."

Peter's words in the above referenced scripture also proves the baptism mentioned in Acts 2:38 is also water baptism.

4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.


The baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus means Paul laid his hands on them by the authority given to him by Jesus. They received the empowering of the Holy Spirit just as those did in Acts 2. THis happened after Paul preached to Jesus just as Peter did to Cornelious, which the Holy Spirit came upon them while Peter was still speaking and he did not lay his hands on them. This was not water baptism in the name of Jesus. The context starts in verses 2, not 5 and 6th.


He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost

 

[CS1]

4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.


The baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus means Paul laid his hands on them by the authority given to him by Jesus. They received the empowering of the Holy Spirit just as those did in Acts 2. THis happened after Paul preached to Jesus just as Peter did to Cornelious, which the Holy Spirit came upon them while Peter was still speaking and he did not lay his hands on them. This was not water baptism in the name of Jesus. The context starts in verses 2, not 5 and 6th.


He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost

they were saved already.

 

[peldom10]

I learned long, long ago that those trusting in water to save them will never see the truth.
A waste of time to try and show them the truth.
They cannot trust in Jesus alone, they must do their part, and then bring in a third person to dunk them under the water.
My salvation is between me and Jesus, not me, Jesus and who ever I can find to dunk me.

Show in God's word that baptism isn't required. That simple.
Your statement doesn't fit.

Baptism is Required



Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

If there is no water baptism anywhere then why do we find these passages:
Mark 1: 4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Luke 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" 15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented. 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized? ” 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
Acts 16: 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.
Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

From these we learn:
1.John's baptism was with water in which repentant received forgiveness. Jesus submitted himself to this baptism to accomplish all righteousness. His baptism blesses and gives His benefits to out baptism.
2.Those who heard Jesus' words to make disciples "baptizing them" in the name of our Triune God clearly understood that meant connecting Jesus Words with water. The other passages where people were baptized included water.
3.The Holy Spirit uses means to connect the blessings Jesus won to the won receiving them. In Baptism it is Water.
Acts 2: 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

 

[peldom10]

Actually, it is you who is saying Jesus is wrong.

Jesus is the water of life. We who drink of him shall NEVER thirst.

You can take a giant gulp of the liquid water you believe will save you as you are immersed beneath it. And if you're thirsty in that moment your thirst may be quenched.

But when you rise out of that water you're not in Salvation.
You're just wet.

Your Catholic church is wrong and corrupt in denying grace and faith alone save.

We are saved by grace through faith. And those are gifts from God.

Works do not save. Thinking you have to add liquid water immersion to God's free irrevocable gift of salvation by grace and faith is a work of man, to secure the grace of God to be saved.

And that's a lie! That calls the Gospel false.

All those verses you pasted don't prove works save.

They prove you don't understand.

Acts 10:44-48

All in that passage were saved already.

We can be baptized after we have come into faith by God's grace. We're then symbolically burying the old "I am'' who was without Christ and his indwelling holy spirit. And when we arise from that water ''I am'' reborn in Christ. It's a symbolic rite that imitates Jesus death and resurrection.
He was laid in the tomb having taken the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. And he resurrected in a glorified body.
Jesus was and is the water of life. Perfect and sinless.

What you and those like you can't seem to understand is everyone who is baptized has accepted Christ as savior first! They believe! By grace they are saved! First!

Baptism comes, if it comes, afterward.

Baptism does not save.

We are saved the moment we believe.

God ordained that an eternal irrevocable fact.

And your works doctrine will never change that.
That you don't realize faith comes before Baptism and people are saved by faith is quite frankly mind boggling. It's basic gospel 101.

Yet you insist you don't know that with every post where you argue baptism is mandatory to save us.

You don't know. And we see that, post after post by you and all who are like you.
Those who insist without liquid water immersion salvation does not exist in that person who has faith in Christ.

That's not just wrong. It's dead wrong.

Your efforts to rewrite scripture fails.

If you are saved while here on earth...then why is God judging you after physical death?

 

[CS1]

they were saved already.

yes, they were saved already if not why did Paul in Acts 19: 1 ask

“Did you receive (Greek lambanō ) to take the Holy Spirit when you believed?” (pisteuō )=of the thing believed past tense. What did they believe in? Jesus.

It was the Holy Spirit they did not hear of BUT Jesus they knew.

 

[Runningman]

Paul answered that in Acts 19, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him,..." Keep in mind that when John began his ministry of baptizing many had no idea that Jesus was the messiah. And none knew He would die, be buried and resurrect.

I’m not so sure Jesus and His disciples would have did John’s baptism of repentance. It seems like it’s most likely these would have been baptisms in Jesus name given it was Jesus and His disciples who were doing the water baptisms in John 3.

Also, prior to Jesus ascending, He said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name beginning in Jerusalem. Therefore no one could have been water baptized in His name prior to that. And as scripture reflects Peter first mentioned the need to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sins on the Day of Pentecost.

Repentance and forgiveness of sins being preached in Jerusalem was already happening prior to the ascension, but beginning in Jerusalem the gospel went out to all the nations. I don’t think there is a correlation between Luke 24:47 and it being impossible for someone to be baptized in Jesus’s name prior to the Day of Pentecost.