The Saving results of the Death of Christ !
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Thats your issue friend. Christs death is a saving death, which you deny since you proclaim many people for whom Christ died shall yet perish in unbelief and sin, as though no Saviour existed.
When you stell me I am posting something false, you are an issue unto your sself. When two argue, both are hurt. If you wish to label me a liar, this would fall to you as judge not only of me but of my soul. What I have posted to which you responded is true. I do not label others nor to I consider myself as authorized to publicly dispagage others., so I will not continue with your banter.
This thread is about the saving death of Christ, you should have known that when you joined the discussion. I never labeled you a liar, yet what you say in opposition to Christs saving death is false.
John 3:16 - This is the world of believers, not the whole world of mankind. Scriptures do not contradict each other. Why would God say that he loved a world, that he told us not to love? (1 John 2:15).
Rom 10:9-10 - Verse 6, explains who Paul is speaking to in verse 9, and it is those who have righteousness which is of "faith that is a fruit of the Spirit" (Gal 5:22). Rom 10:1-2, Paul is directing his prayer to some of God's chosen nation of Jacob/Israel, stating that "they have a zeal of God", but not according to knowledge. Saved in verse 1 & 9 does not have reference to eternal salvation, because they already have eternal salvation, being a part of the nation of Jacob/Israel,
Paul is teaching them the knowledge that Jesus secured their eternal salvation on the cross, and that they do not have to depend upon the works of the old law.
Saved, according to Greek translation, means "delivered". Paul's intention was to deliver them from depending on the works of the law for their eternal deliverance (salvation).
fgc
Correct, its the world of believers or the world of His Own Jn 13:1
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
And He didnt even pray for everyone in the world in general Jn 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And He prayed for them which shall believe through the Gospel of the Apostles Jn 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these[believers] alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Correct, its the world of believers or the world of His Own Jn 13:1
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
And He didnt even pray for everyone in the world in general Jn 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And He prayed for them which shall believe through the Gospel of the Apostles Jn 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these[believers] alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
fgc
I may differ with you here a little, I believe eternal salvation is in view, but Paul is describing the conversion experience of the regenerated, their confessing and believing are fruits of their saved regenerated state. One must have been quickened to call on the Name of the Lord Ps 80:18-19
18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.
19 Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
I may differ with you here a little, I believe eternal salvation is in view, but Paul is describing the conversion experience of the regenerated, their confessing and believing are fruits of their saved regenerated state. One must have been quickened to call on the Name of the Lord Ps 80:18-19
18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.
19 Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
Christ’s Death Actually Saves:
Because those He died for resulted in their eternal redemption, it obtained t for them Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Thats Salvation, the word redemption here means
a ransoming, a redemption
Usage: (in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release. specifically, redemption from the penalty of sin
Redemption from the penalty of sin, which penalty is eternal death as Per Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So redemption from the penalty of sin is the Gift of God by and through Christ by His death having obtained eternal redemption for us, which is eternal life from eternal death, which is Salvation ! In fact eternal redemption equates to that eternal inheritance the redeemed is called to Heb 9:15
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Eternal inheritance is equvilaent to that eternal life in Rom 6:23
10
Because those He died for resulted in their eternal redemption, it obtained t for them Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Thats Salvation, the word redemption here means
a ransoming, a redemption
Usage: (in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release. specifically, redemption from the penalty of sin
Redemption from the penalty of sin, which penalty is eternal death as Per Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So redemption from the penalty of sin is the Gift of God by and through Christ by His death having obtained eternal redemption for us, which is eternal life from eternal death, which is Salvation ! In fact eternal redemption equates to that eternal inheritance the redeemed is called to Heb 9:15
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Eternal inheritance is equvilaent to that eternal life in Rom 6:23
10
We seem to agree in most of our beliefs, but do you understand that, according to Greek translation, Salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, save= deliver?
To my understanding, Psalms 80 has reference to God's elect people, who have been born again, and are disobedient. Verse 4 indicates that they are "thy (god's) people". God is chastening them to humble them to repent.
God's elect people have had a one time deliverance (salvation) by the redemptive power of Jesus's death on the cross, but his born again elect experience many deliverances (salvations) as they sojourn here on earth.
In Psalms 80:18, in the KJV, the word "quicken us" has a footnote translation to mean " revive us".
I do believe that one must be born again (quickened) before he will call upon the name of the Lord. (Eph 2:1-5).
I would not be surprised if you disagree with me on my understanding of the salvation scriptures, but, to me, this is the only way that all of the scriptures will harmonize with each other, and it is my belief that this is in line with the doctrine that Jesus taught.
I do believe that a person must be born again (quickened) before they will call upon the name of the Lord (Eph 2:1-5)
You ask the rhetorical question: "Why would God say that he loved a world, that he told us not to love?" -- Sorry, I won't bite. Your tactic of interpretation does not entice me at all. Yes, indeed God loved a world that he told us very clearly that we are not to let drag us down with its lures and temptations.
Nope! You may read the text that way if you like, but I won't. Jews never did or will have eternal salvation simply because they are a part of the nation of Jacob/Israel. "Saved" in Romans 10:1,9 means eternal salvation.
Here you go again building doctrine by a rhetorical question. Sorry, I won't bite.
Huh, that verse says nothing even close to what you are claiming.
It says that when Christ is "lifted up" (crucified) that He will draw all men (you say it is only a certain group of men)
You claim this verse says this group will be "made believers and converted to him" - Sorry, it does not say that - all it says is that they will be drawn unto him.
Sorry, the verse you quote does not say "the devil cannot prevent Christ from saving a person He died for". It says that Christ will build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Or, it might be that none of your three scenarios are what the Bible says, and that actually the Bible really means exactly what it says about salvation . . . . (Your #2 is a very twisted warped view: that is not what most folks on this chat believe: in fact, I doubt you will not get more than one or two (probably none) to agree with point #2)