Next Big Debate, Obergefell v. Hodges, Gay Marriage

[apwall21]

Jefferson was a true Diest in the 19th Century view, that God just turned on the machine, but stays out of things, and a denier of the miracles of Jesus. One of maybe 3, maybe 4, of the original 136 or so signers (the best representatives of the States!) of the three documents that formed the US.

The rest, down the line, were baptized Christians, who practiced, and used the Bible as the couch for their arguments. It's not even a question, the first US public schools, until the 20th Century, used the Christian Bible as their reading primer. Not, as some would say, because there was nothing else available. We had plenty of presses. Because the States wanted their children to have a moral upbringing in the Christian thinking.

It is absolute Talmudist late-20th Century revisionist, and Satanist, in the truest sense, of arguments that says
:The US was not Christian at Founding.
They have to say this about the Institution of Government, that We The People Created, only. Never did the State make me, or The US make me. And then they have to lie about the prayers before sessions, and the Bibles used for oaths which precede even taking an office. Not to mention our choices of Holidays, and our Declarations for Prayer and Fasting and Thanksgiving, routinely issued by Congresses for nearly 200 years, until the Talmudists got your TV sets.

 

[apwall21]

I'll put another basic argument for why the argument that the US wasn't "theocratic" is wrong.

We The People are supposedly the only proper fount of Governance? Without our will, there is no proper government?
I posit that no woman or man does something they don't believe works. In fact, I would suggest that people only act on what they believe.

If the government is my will, and I am acting on what I believe, if my faith is my guide, then my government (or governance if you prefer the word) is my faith.

Now, when 95% of the US are baptized Christians, as adults mind you, is your government Atheist?

 

[Aaron56]

America is and always has been a Christian nation.

We live in a monarchy with Christ as the Lord? Not a chance. The Constitution, nowhere, mentions Christ or even the Christian God. To say otherwise is a Qanon conspiracy.

 

[Aaron56]

Let the people pass an amendment securing Biblical marriage as a Constitutional right.

Not a chance. It would infringe on the rights of others.

 

[Aaron56]

I'll put another basic argument for why the argument that the US wasn't "theocratic" is wrong.

We The People are supposedly the only proper fount of Governance? Without our will, there is no proper government?
I posit that no woman or man does something they don't believe works. In fact, I would suggest that people only act on what they believe.

If the government is my will, and I am acting on what I believe, if my faith is my guide, then my government (or governance if you prefer the word) is my faith.

Now, when 95% of the US are baptized Christians, as adults mind you, is your government Atheist?

Not "my will". The collective will of the people. There is no way a Biblical definition of marriage can get past the establishment clause.

The founders learned, from their experience with the Roman church and the Anglican church, that state-sanctioned churches bankrupt nations.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

1828 is about 50 years after 1776....try again. It's not their dictionary. Certainly not a legal dictionary.

Blacks Law Dictionary was used in England as well as in American Law. Every lawyer was well versed in those definitions.

I'm not stating an opinion. This historically was so. Many of the founders lived into the 1800s as many were young men in 1776.

Noah Webster defined the words of the day as they were known to the Colonist which obviously took to religious roots.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding more context.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Not a chance. It would infringe on the rights of others.

What right? We're do homosexuals get rights to marry? Why not allow pedophiles to marry children then?

 

[JohnDB]

The quote function sometimes messes up when using a phone to respond to a longer post, so I hope this posts right.

I wont belabor this point. There's way too much history to invoke so to prove America is not a Theocracy. Far more than a thread would allow.

I will say this though. America is not a Theocracy. Much less a Christian Theocracy.

U.S Constitution, amendment 1:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .”

There is no religious test to enter public office. U.S Constitution, Article VI, Section III.

Which would not be the case were America a Theocracy. Rather, America is a secular democracy and a Constitutional Republic.

Excerpted]
''Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.''
Thomas Jefferson, 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association

Church and state....as in the State of the USA and the Church of Virginia vs the Church of Pennsylvania.....

You really need to learn these terms as I told you before.

Of course the USA is not a theocracy....that is vastly far beyond anything that has been said or suggested.

But to say that America was a bunch of secular Atheists is also inherently a mischaracterization as well.

Pilgrims settled America....except nobody calls pilgrims that anymore....we call them Journeyman Missionaries. People moving to a foreign land with the express intention of proselytizing the indigenous population.

Thomas Jefferson thought so highly of his own translation of the Bible that he personally translated that he tried to sell it to the Government for use as a textbook for the schools.

Then there's Benjamin Franklin....the one most people consider the most secular of all the founding Father's. He was on both the Declaration of independence and the Constitution....

Read the preface/introduction to his Autobiography....it only takes the first two sentences before he says "I want to thank God...."

So....claim what you want....the truth is there so long as you don't ignore the elephant in the room.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Church and state....as in the State of the USA and the Church of Virginia vs the Church of Pennsylvania.....

You really need to learn these terms as I told you before.

Of course the USA is not a theocracy....that is vastly far beyond anything that has been said or suggested.

But to say that America was a bunch of secular Atheists is also inherently a mischaracterization as well.

Pilgrims settled America....except nobody calls pilgrims that anymore....we call them Journeyman Missionaries. People moving to a foreign land with the express intention of proselytizing the indigenous population.

Thomas Jefferson thought so highly of his own translation of the Bible that he personally translated that he tried to sell it to the Government for use as a textbook for the schools.

Then there's Benjamin Franklin....the one most people consider the most secular of all the founding Father's. He was on both the Declaration of independence and the Constitution....

Read the preface/introduction to his Autobiography....it only takes the first two sentences before he says "I want to thank God...."

So....claim what you want....the truth is there so long as you don't ignore the elephant in the room.

You replied to the wrong
one.
I believe it was apwell who mentioned something like this, but to say that America was a bunch of secular Atheists is also inherently a mischaracterization as well.

 

[JohnDB]

You replied to the wrong person.

Dangit...

Which one was I'm supposed to?

I'm distracted by in-laws in the hospital with covid and my business partner with our walk through tomorrow.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Dangit...

Which one was I'm supposed to?

I'm distracted by in-laws in the hospital with covid and my business partner with our walk through tomorrow.

Sorry to read about your in-laws. Sending prayers.

Walking through tomorrow? Dang! I gotta buy better shoes and a map!

 

[PennEd]

Not "my will". The collective will of the people. There is no way a Biblical definition of marriage can get past the establishment clause.

The founders learned, from their experience with the Roman church and the Anglican church, that state-sanctioned churches bankrupt nations.

Defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman has NOTHING to do with the establishment clause.

All of human history as well as nature are in accord with Scripture.

There has never been a “right” for homosexuals to “marry”. So to try and create one out of thin air would require a constitutional amendment.

And just because there’s been this phony right for almost 10 years now, doesn’t mean it is legitimate. Just like eventually the “right” to own people was found to be illegitimate.

 

[Aaron56]

What right? We're do homosexuals get rights to marry? Why not allow pedophiles to marry children then?

They have rights under U.S. law. Unlike pedophilia, homosexuality is not a crime in the U. S.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman has NOTHING to do with the establishment clause.

All of human history as well as nature are in accord with Scripture.

There has never been a “right” for homosexuals to “marry”. So to try and create one out of thin air would require a constitutional amendment.

And just because there’s been this phony right for almost 10 years now, doesn’t mean it is legitimate. Just like eventually the “right” to own people was found to be illegitimate.

That amendment was already added to our Constitution July 9th 1868.

 

[Aaron56]

Defying marriage as a union between a man a woman has NOTHING to do with the establishment clause.

All of human history as well as nature are in accord with Scripture.

There has never been a “right” for homosexuals to “marry”. So to try and create one out of thin air would require a constitutional amendment.

And just because there’s been this phony right for almost 10 years now, doesn’t mean it is legitimate. Just like eventually the “right” to own people was found to be illegitimate.

Under U.S. law marriage is a legal contract.

Many here do not understand U.S. law. The law protects US citizens‘ rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... however one might define it. AND it limits others, or laws, from infringing on those rights. US laws are not like Russian or Chinese laws whereby citizen’s dat-to-day behaviors are codified. US law is much broader in scope and much more general.

 

[Bluesproverb]

They have rights under U.S. law. Unlike pedophilia, homosexuality is not a crime in the U. S.

Not anymore.
It was illegal up until 1962. Most state laws criminalizing it were rescinded by then. It was only in 2003 that all 50 States decriminalized homosexuality [i.e sodomy laws].

 

[JohnDB]

Sorry to read about your in-laws. Sending prayers.

Walking through tomorrow? Dang! I gotta buy better shoes and a map!

No...lol
We bought a bakery....we have a walk through tomorrow as part of the finalizing process.

I need to take measurements and make a layout for the modifications so that the health department can approve and the contractors can get us bids on what we need to have done.

 

[PennEd]

Under U.S. law marriage is a legal contract.

Many here do not understand U.S. law. The law protects US citizens‘ rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... however one might define it. AND it limits others, or laws, from infringing on those rights. US laws are not like Russian or Chinese laws whereby citizen’s dat-to-day behaviors are codified. US law is much broader in scope and much more general.

I didn’t say anything about it not being a contract. I said there was never a right for HOMOSEXUALS to marry.

Without the definition being concrete any relationship could be considered worthy of a “marriage” contract.

What would prevent two brothers from marrying? Or a mother and son? Or all sorts of polygamy?

All the aforementioned are consenting adults.

The more people who agree that homosexual marriage is false and not legally recognizable from anyone who thinks it’s false, the more the needle will be moved back to sanity.

That’s not to say two guys can’t call themselves anything they want. Just that no one has to recognize the farce they wish to perpetuate.

 

[Aaron56]

Not anymore.
It was illegal up until 1962. Most state laws criminalizing it were rescinded by then. It was only in 2003 that all 50 States decriminalized homosexuality [i.e sodomy laws].

Of course.

To note: in the kingdom of God the Son is the standard of righteousness.
in the kingdom of the US, the people are the standard of righteousness. That is why it has never been nor will it ever be the kingdom of God.

 

[Aaron56]

I didn’t say anything about it not being a contract. I said there was never a right for HOMOSEXUALS to marry.

Without the definition being concrete any relationship could be considered worthy of a “marriage” contract.

What would prevent two brothers from marrying? Or a mother and son? Or all sorts of polygamy?

All the aforementioned are consenting adults.

The more people who agree that homosexual marriage is false and not legally recognizable from anyone who thinks it’s false, the more the needle will be moved back to sanity.

That’s not to say two guys can’t call themselves anything they want. Just that no one has to recognize the farce they wish to perpetuate.

We could spend all day on hyperbole and conjecture. I thought we were discussing US law as it is.

In the kingdom of God, homosexuality is a demonic perversion. In the US it is state of being protected by law.