Did Jesus drink alcohol?
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I would not go to Steve Anderson for historical expertise.
According to Jesus, John the Baptist did not come eating and drinking and they said he had a devil, but the Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said 'Behold a man gluttonous and a wine bibber.' Someone refusing to drink alcohol back then would have been unusual. Nazarites would have refused, along with raisins and grapes, but otherwise it was the norm to drink. And why would they have exaggerated and made Jesus out to be a winebibber if he abstained from all alcohol?
We know that Christians used 'real wine' in their church meetings because Paul corrected excesses in Corinth when he wrote, "One man is hungry, and another is drunken.' They were doing it wrong, but it is clear the 'wine' they used was actual wine.
Welch's grape juice, and the process to distill the grape juice so it won't ferment was invented around the turn of the 20th century. When some churches started using it instead of regular wine, that was controversial. You can read newspapers from around that era. Groups of Christians developing some sort of doctrinal argument against drinking any alcohol at all started some decades prior in the 1800's. Before that, it was not really a thing.
John Wesley preached about the dangers of distilled liquor. The English imported gin, from a technology for distilling liquor that had been developed a couple of hundred years earlier. Distilled liquors could be more potent-in terms of alcohol content- than first century wine. But Wesley also taught that the scriptures taught that wine was an effective medicine, and he would drink a daily glass of wine when he had stomach ailments. This evolved into preaching against all alcohol consumption. A document was produced during the temperance movement based on misapplication of ancient quotes about alcohol, misrepresenting the historical context, and some individuals repeated and published that and doctrine was developed around it.
According to Jesus, John the Baptist did not come eating and drinking and they said he had a devil, but the Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said 'Behold a man gluttonous and a wine bibber.' Someone refusing to drink alcohol back then would have been unusual. Nazarites would have refused, along with raisins and grapes, but otherwise it was the norm to drink. And why would they have exaggerated and made Jesus out to be a winebibber if he abstained from all alcohol?
We know that Christians used 'real wine' in their church meetings because Paul corrected excesses in Corinth when he wrote, "One man is hungry, and another is drunken.' They were doing it wrong, but it is clear the 'wine' they used was actual wine.
Welch's grape juice, and the process to distill the grape juice so it won't ferment was invented around the turn of the 20th century. When some churches started using it instead of regular wine, that was controversial. You can read newspapers from around that era. Groups of Christians developing some sort of doctrinal argument against drinking any alcohol at all started some decades prior in the 1800's. Before that, it was not really a thing.
John Wesley preached about the dangers of distilled liquor. The English imported gin, from a technology for distilling liquor that had been developed a couple of hundred years earlier. Distilled liquors could be more potent-in terms of alcohol content- than first century wine. But Wesley also taught that the scriptures taught that wine was an effective medicine, and he would drink a daily glass of wine when he had stomach ailments. This evolved into preaching against all alcohol consumption. A document was produced during the temperance movement based on misapplication of ancient quotes about alcohol, misrepresenting the historical context, and some individuals repeated and published that and doctrine was developed around it.
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Alcohol has been a destructive force in the history of mankind since Noah got drunk. The last two major preacher scandals that made headlines there was alcohol involved.
It's not a doctrine of total abstinence that we need. It is simply observing life and realizing that there is nothing good about alcohol and never will be. The bible does not teach that alcohol is good for you.
Jesus said in the context of His Coming again in the clouds with the Power and Glory of the Father that we are to BE ON OUR GAURD against Carousing, Drunkeness, and being consumed with the cares of this life.
That is what he said the world will be doing when He comes and that day will come upon them like a TRAP. They will not be ready? Why? They will be carousing, drinking alcohol, and focused/worried about the things of this life. Those three things is what he used to describe their main problems that will make them NOT READY. (Luke 22:34)
It's not a doctrine of total abstinence that we need. It is simply observing life and realizing that there is nothing good about alcohol and never will be. The bible does not teach that alcohol is good for you.
Jesus said in the context of His Coming again in the clouds with the Power and Glory of the Father that we are to BE ON OUR GAURD against Carousing, Drunkeness, and being consumed with the cares of this life.
That is what he said the world will be doing when He comes and that day will come upon them like a TRAP. They will not be ready? Why? They will be carousing, drinking alcohol, and focused/worried about the things of this life. Those three things is what he used to describe their main problems that will make them NOT READY. (Luke 22:34)
I've read that homicide with firearms is the most common type of homocide. Typically this involves metal. Knives, made of metal, are used to kill people. Cars, made of metal, kill people in accidents.
So is metal evil? Is it a destructive force? Should no Christian be taught dead touching metal.
Oh, and some metal music has bad lyrics, too, so there is another argument.
You treat alcohol as if it were an evil substance. God required wine and strong drink (beer in some translations) offerings in the temple. Why would God want that if these were evil substances?
Are you saying Paul was wrong when in inspired scripture he wrote to Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake? I've had medical ethanol around the house overseas. It can be used on wounds. Are you saying there is no positive use?
Psalm 104: tells us that God gave wine.
15 and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.
Do you think bread is evil, too. God gave that to strengthen men's heart. So do you think that is bad, too?
If wine is inherently bad, when why did Jesus take the cup and say "Drink ye all of it"?
I think you mean Luke 21:34
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
The warning is against drunkennes, not against light or moderate use of alcohol, the way Jesus and the apostles used it. Peter spoke against __excess of wine.__ Paul wrote that deacons were not to be given to __much__ wine.
I have a question for you. Do you think Paul wanted to make sure deacons did not drink too much Welch's grape juice?
So is metal evil? Is it a destructive force? Should no Christian be taught dead touching metal.
Oh, and some metal music has bad lyrics, too, so there is another argument.
You treat alcohol as if it were an evil substance. God required wine and strong drink (beer in some translations) offerings in the temple. Why would God want that if these were evil substances?
Are you saying Paul was wrong when in inspired scripture he wrote to Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake? I've had medical ethanol around the house overseas. It can be used on wounds. Are you saying there is no positive use?
Psalm 104: tells us that God gave wine.
15 and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.
Do you think bread is evil, too. God gave that to strengthen men's heart. So do you think that is bad, too?
If wine is inherently bad, when why did Jesus take the cup and say "Drink ye all of it"?
I think you mean Luke 21:34
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
The warning is against drunkennes, not against light or moderate use of alcohol, the way Jesus and the apostles used it. Peter spoke against __excess of wine.__ Paul wrote that deacons were not to be given to __much__ wine.
I have a question for you. Do you think Paul wanted to make sure deacons did not drink too much Welch's grape juice?
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As I understand the story, before the flood grapes did not ferment into wine strong enough to get drunk on. Going in to see one's father nude was improper. Some source claims that he had sex with his Father when he was passed out. I heard once that the curse defined the ancestor line for the Messiah. I have no proof either way.
I can give my best guess. I can't prove it. I think that Noah did not have experience with fermentation. I think he did not see it coming. I don't think he was trying to get drunk. Ham went and told his brothers about his sin instead of covering him up.
The lesson being that we need to help our fallen brother recover and not talk about them to others without even trying to help them first.
If Noah knew that he was going to get drunk then his sin is obvious and didn't need explaining since we all know that he would have had to deal with that between him and God and probably did. It would suggest that sin is in the heart of even the best man left on the planet. Or the capacity to sin is always there. But what Ham did involved others and what Noah did involved only himself. Plus maybe Ham had not repentance and therefore brought the judgment upon himself due to his own heart condition.
These are a few of my guesses.
What do you think?
Jesus telling us to be on our guard about drunkeness in Luke 21:31 is sobering. No pun intended. This will dull a mind and make them not ready for the coming of the Lord. That is what Jesus said. Carousing, drunkeness and worries about life. Doing that will dull the mind and make them not ready to stand before the Son of Man.
Noah's drunkeness might have been a willful sin, and if so, the lessons deepen. If not, then it makes sense that nothing is mentioned about it being a sin. But when most people read it they think wonder... "did he know? or did he do it on purpose?"
The lesson being that we need to help our fallen brother recover and not talk about them to others without even trying to help them first.
If Noah knew that he was going to get drunk then his sin is obvious and didn't need explaining since we all know that he would have had to deal with that between him and God and probably did. It would suggest that sin is in the heart of even the best man left on the planet. Or the capacity to sin is always there. But what Ham did involved others and what Noah did involved only himself. Plus maybe Ham had not repentance and therefore brought the judgment upon himself due to his own heart condition.
These are a few of my guesses.
What do you think?
Jesus telling us to be on our guard about drunkeness in Luke 21:31 is sobering. No pun intended. This will dull a mind and make them not ready for the coming of the Lord. That is what Jesus said. Carousing, drunkeness and worries about life. Doing that will dull the mind and make them not ready to stand before the Son of Man.
Noah's drunkeness might have been a willful sin, and if so, the lessons deepen. If not, then it makes sense that nothing is mentioned about it being a sin. But when most people read it they think wonder... "did he know? or did he do it on purpose?"
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I repeat. No amount of alcohol is good for you. This is a scientific fact. Google. "No amount of alcohol is good for you" and read about Acetaldehyde. There may be benefits from a glass of wine but it is not the alcohol part that helps your organs.
All of the verses you mentioned can apply to the nutrients and ingredients in wine other than the alcohol.
We are not limited to bad water or wine in our choices today. Cultural context matters.
As does motives of the heart.
All of the verses you mentioned can apply to the nutrients and ingredients in wine other than the alcohol.
We are not limited to bad water or wine in our choices today. Cultural context matters.
As does motives of the heart.-
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I repeat. No amount of alcohol is good for you. This is a scientific fact. Google. "No amount of alcohol is good for you" and read about Acetaldehyde. There may be benefits from a glass of wine but it is not the alcohol part that helps your organs.
All of the verses you mentioned can apply to the nutrients and ingredients in wine other than the alcohol.
We are not limited to bad water or wine in our choices today. Cultural context matters. As does motives of the heart.
All of the verses you mentioned can apply to the nutrients and ingredients in wine other than the alcohol.
We are not limited to bad water or wine in our choices today. Cultural context matters.
As does motives of the heart.
is it a sin to drink soft drinks, which have a lot of junk in them, most of it bad for you??
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I don't think it is a sin for a person to drink a glass of wine with a meal if that's all they do and they are not trying to get a buzz and don't get one.
But I don't think it is good for them.
Do a survey. Ask anyone who believes it is ok to drink a glass of wine with a meal as long as you don't get drunk and ask them when was the last time they drank too much? If you discover that they all have a story of a time they did, then you have learned that abstinence would be a better goal than moderation.
But I don't think it is good for them.
Do a survey. Ask anyone who believes it is ok to drink a glass of wine with a meal as long as you don't get drunk and ask them when was the last time they drank too much? If you discover that they all have a story of a time they did, then you have learned that abstinence would be a better goal than moderation.
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