The Deuterocanonical Book of Tobit.

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

So given the discussion on money, generosity, prosperity, poverty, Paul's counsels against greed etc on the other thread, I thought we could have a discussion on the Jewish Book of Tobit. This is one of the 7 books not in Protestant Bibles but in Catholic and Orthodox ones. Martin Luther called them: "books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read."

I've posted a sample passage below from Tobit 4, where Tobit gives advise to Tobias. Thoughts on the passage, and the book in general?

God Bless.

Taken from: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit 4&version=GNT

"Tobit's Advice to Tobias
4 That same day, Tobit remembered the money that he had left with Gabael at Rages in Media. 2 He thought to himself,

Now that I have asked God to let me die, I should call my son Tobias and tell him about the money.
3-4 So Tobit called Tobias and said to him,
Son, when I die, give me a proper burial. And after I'm gone, show respect to your mother. Take care of her for the rest of her life, and when she dies, bury her beside me. Remember, she risked her life to bring you into this world, so try to make her happy and never do anything that would worry her.
5 Every day of your life, keep the Lord our God in mind. Never sin deliberately or disobey any of his commands. Always do what is right and never get involved in anything evil. 6 Be honest, and you will succeed in whatever you do.

7 Give generously to anyone who faithfully obeys God. If you are stingy in giving to the poor, God will be stingy in giving to you. 8 Give according to what you have. The more you have, the more you should give. Even if you have only a little, be sure to give something. 9 This is as good as money saved. You will have your reward in a time of trouble. 10-11 Taking care of the poor is the kind of offering that pleases God in heaven. Do this, and you will be kept safe from the dark world of the dead.

12 Son, be on your guard against prostitutes. Above all, marry a woman of our tribe, because we are descendants of the prophets. Do not marry anyone who is not related to us. Remember that Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our earliest ancestors, all married relatives. God blessed them with children, and so their descendants will inherit the land of Israel. 13 Son, be loyal to your own relatives. Don't be too proud to marry one of them. Such pride leads to terrible frustration and ruin, just as laziness brings on severe poverty and causes starvation.

14 Pay your workers each day; never keep back their wages overnight. Honor God in this way, and he will reward you. Behave properly at all times. 15 Never do to anyone else anything that you would not want someone to do to you.

Do not drink so much wine that you get drunk, and do not let drinking become a habit.

16 Give food to the hungry and clothes to people in need. If you are prosperous, give generously, and do it gladly!

17 When one of God's faithful people has died, prepare food for the family, but never do this when someone evil dies.

18 Take the advice of sensible people, and never treat any useful advice lightly.

19 Take advantage of every opportunity to praise the Lord your God. Ask him to make you prosper in whatever you set out to do. He does not give his wisdom to the people of any other nation. He is the source of all good things, but he can also destroy you and bring you to certain death, if he wishes.

Remember all my instructions. Don't forget them for one minute.

20 Tobias, I want you to know that I once left a large sum of money with Gabrias' son, Gabael, at Rages in Media. 21 We're poor now, but don't worry. If you obey God and avoid sin, he will be pleased with you and make you prosperous."

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

I have read it and it is not canon for good reasons. I would not recommend the weak of mind or faith to read it given the heretical nature of the book particularly around the subject of demons and angels.

 

[Bluesproverb]

I read the Apocrypha. There are many texts , scrolls, writings, that have been found long years after the canon was published.

I like to remember the Bible was canonized , written, by men who claimed the earth was flat.
And by men who led or were inspired to initiate campaigns of mass murder if others!

Because those others were deemed worthy of death for not believing what murderers insisted was the true message of their God of love.

Men who needed saving!

Men who determined they were empowered to determine what narrative God meant to message to the whole world once and for all.
Because the underlying message of the designation of biblical canon is that it is the final word of God for all time.

Andvit was men who determined that among themselves.

Men who would uphold that idea and later execute people under its authority.
Even making it against the law of man to own a copy of God's word, under penalty of death.

Therefore, given God gave us a brain and his spirit indwells us, if you feel led to read the Apocrypha or other Deuterocanonical books, do so.

Because you may learn something new as God wills.

And the bonus? No one will invoke church authority and kill you for it.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Tobit 12:9
For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin.

In contradistinction the Scriptures conclude.......

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Tobit 12:9
For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin.

In contradistinction the Scriptures conclude.......

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

That's why Tobit is in the Catholic Bible. Money.
Protestants don't go that route. Instead we teach the tythe. And 'prosperity doctrine. Money!

Consider the practice of Indulgence$.

While the practice of indulgences at the time of the Reformation needed reform, the theology of indulgences runs very deep and actually unveils some of the most beautiful aspects of the Catholic Faith. In other words, yes, the Church still believes in indulgences.

https://media.ascensionpress.com/2017/10/30/does-the-church-still-believe-in-indulgences/

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Thanks, all, for the responses. It was a Council in 382 A.D. that declared the 27 Book NT Canon we're all familiar with. This same Council also considered Tobit and the other 6 Deuterocanonicals to be Scripture, enlisting 46 OT books in all.

Source: "The Decree of the Council of Rome (AD 382) on the Canon of Scripture during the reign of Pope Damasus I (AD 366–384) reads thus, according to the later ‘Gelasian Decree’:

...

Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books [i.e. Ezra & Nehemiah], Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Rome

4:9 seems to echo what Our Lord said in the Gospel: "9 So you will be laying up a good treasure for yourself against the day of necessity." (RSVCE).

Mat 6:20: "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth norrust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:" (KJV)

And regarding passages where almsgiving is said to cover sin etc, there are similar passages in the New Testament. It is about bringing forth the fruits of repentance imo, which contribute to the sanctifying of the soul. An example is 1 Pet 4:8

"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins." (1 Pet 4:8)

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Here is Tobit 12, where the Archangel Raphael reveals himself. Note that in Hebrews 13:2 it is said, "Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." which is a fair description of what happened here. And also, in the Book of Revelation, there is a reference to the "seven spirits of God", just like in Tobias.

Chapter 12:

"Raph′ael’s Wages

12 Tobit then called his son Tobi′as and said to him, “My son, see to the wages of the man who went with you; and he must also be given more.” 2 He replied, “Father, it would do me no harm to give him half of what I have brought back. 3 For he has led me back to you safely, he cured my wife, he obtained the money for me, and he also healed you.” 4 The old man said, “He deserves it.” 5 So he called the angel and said to him, “Take half of all that you two have brought back.”

Raph′ael’s Exhortation

6 Then the angel called the two of them privately and said to them: “Praise God and give thanks to him; exalt him and give thanks to him in the presence of all the living for what he has done for you. It is good to praise God and to exalt his name, worthily declaring the works of God. Do not be slow to give him thanks. 7 It is good to guard the secret of a king, but gloriously to reveal the works of God. Do good, and evil will not overtake you. 8 Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold. 9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life; 10 but those who commit sin are the enemies of their own lives.

Raph′ael Discloses His Identity

11 “I will not conceal anything from you. I have said, ‘It is good to guard the secret of a king, but gloriously to reveal the works of God.’ 12 And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you. 13 When you did not hesitate to rise and leave your dinner in order to go and lay out the dead, your good deed was not hidden from me, but I was with you. 14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raph′ael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.”

16 They were both alarmed; and they fell upon their faces, for they were afraid. 17 But he said to them, “Do not be afraid; you will be safe. But praise God for ever. 18 For I did not come as a favor on my part, but by the will of our God. Therefore praise him for ever. 19 All these days I merely appeared to you and did not eat or drink, but you were seeing a vision. 20 And now give thanks to God, for I am ascending to him who sent me. Write in a book everything that has happened.” 21 Then they stood up; but they saw him no more. 22 So they confessed the great and wonderful works of God, and acknowledged that the angel of the Lord had appeared to them."

 

[Jocund]

Tobit 12:9
For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin.

In contradistinction the Scriptures conclude.......

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Since Tobit is OT deuterocanon, it would follow that any ordinances laid out in it were also nailed to the cross along with the rest of OT law. We could alternatively look at Jesus' sacrifice as an alms that covers this by equivalency.

If we don't interpret this as an ordinance and instead just a statement of fact, we could look at "alms" as a reference to spiritual offerings seen in 1 Peter 2.

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." - 1 Peter 2:5 KJV

And arguably this type of sacrifice or "alms" in a loose sense could be to surrender your will to the will of God.

I think that passage of Tobit is reconciliable.

 

[Jocund]

Men who determined they were empowered to determine what narrative God meant to message to the whole world once and for all.
Because the underlying message of the designation of biblical canon is that it is the final word of God for all time.

The question of biblical canon is something to be taken on faith.

The concept of the authority of canon as it stands was something in my youth that I struggled with. And that struggle was aggravated by pretend-intellectuals that hailed from a common anti-Christian culture.

If nothing else, you can appreciate the canon as a school of thought. And from there determine whether it is compelling or not to you (this was Thomas Aquinas's approach with theology in general).

The fact that the crusades and inquisition are cast in such a bad light in modern times did not mean that there weren't good Christian men and women at the helm governing the culture.

And with that, I think it's good to bring your thoughts and doubts to the forefront. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Struggling faith that is pushed to the shadows just causes it to fester.

 

[phil36]

Tobit was never part of Jewish scripture.

 

[pottersclay]

So we have to ask...is prosperity the sign of Gods approval?
Should we give ...so that we can receive?
Do i give in order to receive?
Jesus said that the rich have a much harder time to enter the kingdom.

My conclusion is that these scriptures are mis leading as the holy scriptures say...seek you first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all shall be added to you.

 

[Jocund]

Tobit was never part of Jewish scripture.

The Tobit was not found in the Jewish OT canon of the time. And understandably, that was part of the reason it wasn't included into canon.

It would be a hard thing to prove that there was never a point in time that it was part of Hebrew OT scripture. Especially since the Hebrew culture was originally an oral culture.

 

[Jocund]

is prosperity the sign of Gods approval?

No, because it rains and shines on the righteous and unrighteous alike. Also Rom 9:17.

 

[pottersclay]

No, because it rains and shines on the righteous and unrighteous alike. Also Rom 9:17.

Yes ive left this out for this very reason.......good for you saint. It is ....thy will be done ..not..my will be done.

 

[phil36]

The Tobit was not found in the Jewish OT canon of the time. And understandably, that was part of the reason it wasn't included into canon.

It would be a hard thing to prove that there was never a point in time that it was part of Hebrew OT scripture. Especially since the Hebrew culture was originally an oral culture.

There's a problem with your argumentation.. By the time Tobit was written.. The Jews had their cannon possibly around the Hasmonean period and the Jews never considered Tobit as part of scripture.

That's not to say that it is not an interesting read like all other books from man, like say, the Lord of the rings or a jack reacher novel.

 

[Jocund]

There's a problem with your argumentation.. By the time Tobit was written.. The Jews had their cannon possibly around the Hasmonean period and the Jews never considered Tobit as part of scripture.

That's not to say that it is not an interesting read like all other books from man, like say, the Lord of the rings or a jack reacher novel.

The oldest book of the bible (from a written source material perspective) is from 500 BC (conservative estimate), and that is the book of Job. The problem we run into is that we are often missing written copies that would have come before the ones we have available to us. Therefore, the council was only able to rely on what was available at their time without access to potential "missing links" in scripture that (if they existed) would demonstrate their presence in Hebrew scripture. And even without a written text, as an oral culture, the words were passed down by mouth instead of ink.

Something we have to consider is that after the beginnings of Christianity, the anti-Christ sects of Judaism were changing their scriptures in whatever way they could to try make the teachings of the Holy Bible incompatible with their beliefs. This includes indirect modifications such as the Talmud (their version of the New Testament), and sometimes directly such as by cleverly changing the interpolated vowels from the source manuscripts to try to make it seem like the New Testament was misquoting the Old. I wouldn't trust an anti-Christ culture's account of what was or was not in scripture at the time. Even the council rejected Maccabees despite being in Jewish scripture at the time.

A third consideration is that these stories could have been lost to time and then reintroduced by Divine Revelation to Greek authors that wrote down what happened. So even if there truly never were any Hebrew manuscripts depicting the stories, much like the creation account being revealed to Moses eons after it happened, so too Greek authors could have received the truth of something that was.

It creates a bit of a conundrum, because there are forms of Christianity that hold some of these books as part of the core canon. Are they wrong to do so? We would need some way to measure and determine what is the reason these books were rejected.

I think we can definitively root out some of these if they contain some kind of necessary contradiction with the rest of scripture. And if there are contradictions that these should be brought to the forefront and examined for what they are. I imagine this is what the councils did and why they aren't present in canon.

And the next question is, if there is a contradiction, is it the result of a false writing or a corrupted writing? I imagine many denominations that hold these as deuterocanon likely assume the position that these were originally inspired texts but simply corrupted over time. Much like Moslems view the Christian New Testament as inspired texts that were corrupted. Allegedly some Moslem denominations hold the New Testament as deuterocanon.

From that perspective, it would be less like the passing interest for an intentional fiction such as Lord of the Rings, and more like the interest that one might have for a historical account of a battle where a warrior stops a boat from retreating by biting into the hull with his teeth... the battle might have happened but the specifics might have been exaggerated or changed from what actually happened. It isn't always clear whether some of the deuterocanon books were fiction or based in reality.

We largely accept the canon by faith. We trust in the traditions there we were entrusted with. I don't consider the apocrypha books to be authoritative, but they are interesting, and I think it is worth exploring how they match up against scriptural canon.

I'm still thinking on this topic. But the short answer to your point is that because Maccabees wasn't included, the Jewish texts of the day by themselves aren't a good measure of what was or was not inspired works. The council's decision must be observed as an inspired decision.

 

[phil36]

It creates a bit of a conundrum, because there are forms of Christianity that hold some of these books as part of the core canon. Are they wrong to do so? We would need some way to measure and determine what is the reason these books were rejected.

This goes back to the point I was making. Tobit is pre-Christian writing.. The Jews never considered Tobit as inspired nor part of their canon either before or after Christ. However, the OT writings that we consider cannon were considered as cannon and inspired by the Jewish. That fact on its own is enough for me.

Again as I said there's no harm in reading these book as long as we recognise they are not inspired. In fact we can gleem a lot of information from the likes of macabees for it's input on the inter testamental period/history.

Anyhow enjoy the rest of your weekend 👍