Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[FreeGrace2]

Fruit not save you, faith is
but when you have faith, Jesus in you you bear fruit, not by you, by Jesus in you

I am truly sorry that you are unable to grasp what I've been telling you.

A believer will bear fruit ONLY WHEN they are in fellowship with the Lord. That is what "abiding in Him" means.

If it referred to salvation, then Jesus was commanding His disciples to save themselves by abiding in Him. That is wrong.

it decide heaven or hell

No, God decides heaven or hell. John 3:16, 6:40 tells us those who believe in Christ will go to heaven.

Rev 20:15 tells us that those who don't believe won't have their name in the book of life and will end up in the lake of fire.

it is biblical

Your views are totally unbiblical.

no fruit mean no faith mean hell

Wrong.

 

[Jackson123]

I am truly sorry that you are unable to grasp what I've been telling you.

A believer will bear fruit ONLY WHEN they are in fellowship with the Lord. That is what "abiding in Him" means.

If it referred to salvation, then Jesus was commanding His disciples to save themselves by abiding in Him. That is wrong.


No, God decides heaven or hell. John 3:16, 6:40 tells us those who believe in Christ will go to heaven.

Rev 20:15 tells us that those who don't believe won't have their name in the book of life and will end up in the lake of fire.


Your views are totally unbiblical.


Wrong.

all believer have fellowship with god

that is your mistake

all believer have love

fruit of Holy Spirit is love

no love no Jesus > no heaven

 

[FreeGrace2]

all believer have fellowship with god

Paul tells believers to stop grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit. Does that sound like being in fellowship with God?

that is your mistake

Say that in a mirror.

all believer have love

You haven't read Acts 8 then. You should.
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

These verses say in plain language that Simon believed. And you've seen the verses that SAY in plain language that believers possess eteranl life. So Simon WAS SAVED. The Bible makes that clear.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money
19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”

Does this sound like a believer who has love?

No, it looks like a believer who is OUT OF FELLOWSHIP.

fruit of Holy Spirit is love

One must be filled with the Spirit before they produce the fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5:22-23

Do you know HOW to obey the command to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Eph 5:18

no love no Jesus > no heaven

What verse are you citing from? There are NONE.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Please share any verse that clearly shows that these works save our souls.

I never argue against verses that clearly say what is claimed.

I said that works don't save.

Do you understand the value of 'context'?

Jesus had said this first:
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

Jesus used "work for food" to refer both to physical sustenance, and salvation. v.26 shows that the crowd was MORE INTERESTED in getting their bellies full than anything else.

So, the crowd responded to what Jesus said in v.26 and 27 this way:

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
"
Now, do you really understand what they were asking Jesus? They were thinking like all good Pharisees; what WORKS will save us?

So Jesus responded according to their mindset of "works salvation".

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

So, IF you want to argue that salvation IS by work, then v.29 clarifies EXACTLY what "work" does save: "to believe in the One God sent", which is Jesus Christ.

So, v.29 doesn't include anything that you listed as the works that save. In fact, there is only one "work" in the singular that does save; and that is believing in Jesus Christ.

I believe that Jesus was speaking "tongue in cheek" when He used the word "work", since believing is NOT a work. It is a TRUST.

The Bible easily clarifies that work of man does not save, but only faith in Christ.

Eph 2;8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So, if you want to believe that one can be saved by work (singular), then from Jn 6:29, that singular work is to believe in Jesus Christ. Nothing else.

I said:
"Water baptism is a symbol. "1 Pet 3:21
False
Truth:
Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You are wrong twice here. First, v.9-20 of Mark 16 don't appear in the earliest manuscripts. Meaning they were added later. So they are NOT inspired. The scribe who took the liberties of adding to Scripture didn't know his Bible.

Second, 1 Pet 3:21 DOES SAY that water baptism is a symbol.
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The "baptism that now saves you" is a reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is NOT by water. That is why John the baptizer could say this about Jesus:
Mark 1:8 - I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”


Here, "water" refers to physical birth.
Spirit refers to Holy Spirit baptism


False

Truth:
Matthew 25:41-43
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Anyone who thinks Jesus was teaching that any of these actions will save someone, they have been severely deceived.

You forgot to complete the whole passage. For context, you know.

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

There it is. "the RIGHTEOUS to eternal life". We know from many verses that it is believers who possess eternal life. And it is believers who are declared RIGHTEOUS. In fact, it is the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to believers.

Rom 3:21 - But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction

So in Matt 25, the "sheep" are believers and the "goats" are unbelievers.


Failure. I proved from the Bible that John 6:29 says there is a singular work that saves, and that work (singular) is to believe in Jesus Christ. Nothing else you claimed will save you or anyone else.


Start reading the Bible.


You don't know what you are talking about. Which I keep proving from the Bible.

Good job trying hard to change what the Bible says to fit your false doctrine. SMH. No shame.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jackson 123,

I've given you 2 SETS of verses that both prove eternal security, and you won't even address any of the verses.

The first set includes John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40,47 and 1 John 5:13 and says that believers possess eternal life. Then John 10:28 says in plain language that based on what Jesus does (gives eternal life) the recipient shall NEVER PERISH.

The second set includes Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, all of which teach that "having believed" (notice the aorist tense here) the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit and is GUARANTEED an inheritance at the redemption as God's possession.

So both sets teach eternal security clearly. To deny this is to admit failing to understand words.

Also, both sets of verses show clearly that our security is based ONLY on what Jesus does. There is NOTHING about what we must do after believing in Christ and receiving eternal life and receiving the Holy Spirit.

So, the question of who will never perish is based on whether the person was given eternal life and the Holy Spirit.

Since EVERY believer IS given eternal life AND the Holy Spirit, this PROVES that once saved, always saved.

I rest my case.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good job trying hard to change what the Bible says to fit your false doctrine. SMH. No shame.

Then prove your empty claim with some real evidence. All you do is throw claims out. But they are empty. They are so empty they echo when they hit the ground.

 

[Jackson123]

Paul tells believers to stop grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit. Does that sound like being in fellowship with God?


Say that in a mirror.


You haven't read Acts 8 then. You should.
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

These verses say in plain language that Simon believed. And you've seen the verses that SAY in plain language that believers possess eteranl life. So Simon WAS SAVED. The Bible makes that clear.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money
19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”

Does this sound like a believer who has love?

No, it looks like a believer who is OUT OF FELLOWSHIP.


One must be filled with the Spirit before they produce the fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5:22-23

Do you know HOW to obey the command to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Eph 5:18


What verse are you citing from? There are NONE.

you have wrong concept about the definition of believer and Holy Spirit baptized

believer is when he or she accept Jesus into their heart

so every real believer have Jesus in

fake believer may been water baptized but no Jesus in their heart, not save

real believer have agape love because Jesus in their heart

not that believer able doing agape love, but Jesus in their heart produce that agape love and believer bear it
No fruit trown into fire John 15;6

 

[Runningman]

Then prove your empty claim with some real evidence. All you do is throw claims out. But they are empty. They are so empty they echo when they hit the ground.

I’ve proven the Bible’s claims using verses. The verses I showed you in my previous posts are clear already. Your efforts to change them are self-evident. I don’t really need to provide any further evidence other than point to the hole you’ve dug yourself into.

 

[apwall21]

Without seeing the actual poll, it's a useless claim. I have no idea if there was implication in the language, or even how many choices were given. Most of these "surveys" are done to defame a political candidate, or to sell one and a new population control aggression by DC.

 

[FreeGrace2]

you have wrong concept about the definition of believer and Holy Spirit baptized

Amazing just how completely confused you are. I've proven eternal security from 2 sets of verses.

believer is when he or she accept Jesus into their heart

Nope. Read the Bible. Start with John 3:16.

so every real believer have Jesus in

Nope. Believers receive the Holy Spirit, as PROVEN from Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, which you really really really need to read.

fake believer may been water baptized but no Jesus in their heart, not save

Sure. Liars are fakers. Always.

real believer have agape love because Jesus in their heart

Prove it from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then prove your empty claim with some real evidence. All you do is throw claims out. But they are empty. They are so empty they echo when they hit the ground.

I’ve proven the Bible’s claims using verses. The verses I showed you in my previous posts are clear already. Your efforts to change them are self-evident.

Why don't you even try to prove your empty claim with some evident? If your claim is true about my "efforts being so self evident", then it would be EASY PEASY to prove your claim. But here you are, just repeating your empty claims. That's not proof.

I don’t really need to provide any further evidence other than point to the hole you’ve dug yourself into.

No, you haven't even done that either. Wow. Just tons of empty claims. Zero evidence.

 

[Jackson123]

Amazing just how completely confused you are. I've proven eternal security from 2 sets of verses.


Nope. Read the Bible. Start with John 3:16.


Nope. Believers receive the Holy Spirit, as PROVEN from Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, which you really really really need to read.


Sure. Liars are fakers. Always.


Prove it from Scripture.

so you believe that every believer have Holy Spirit?

 

[FreeGrace2]

so you believe that every believer have Holy Spirit?

I believe what the Bible teaches. So should you.

Acts 11 - Peter explains his actions
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Gal 3
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Why do you believe that some believers don't have the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jackson123]

I believe what the Bible teaches. So should you.

Acts 11 - Peter explains his actions
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Gal 3
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Why do you believe that some believers don't have the Holy Spirit?

My question is do you think every real believer must have Holy Spirit or fake believer

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then prove your empty claim with some real evidence. All you do is throw claims out. But they are empty. They are so empty they echo when they hit the ground.

Why don't you even try to prove your empty claim with some evident? If your claim was is true about my "efforts being so self evident", then it would be EASY PEASY to prove your claim. But here you are, just repeating your empty claims. That's not proof.


No, you haven't even done that either. Wow. Just tons of empty claims. Zero evidence.

I’ve proved you have to actually do something by quoting the relevant scriptures in post #2056.

Did you see the one in Matthew 25 where they didn’t do something and were sent to the “eternal fire?” What about that means eternal security to you?

Read Matthew 25:31-46 and answer honestly. Do you think someone who believes in Jesus, but doesn’t help those in need will be rewarded with eternal life? If yes, quote the scripture to justify your position or stand debunked.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My question is do you think every real believer must have Holy Spirit or fake believer

Can you NOT understand my words? I showed you verses that say clearly that those who believe have the Holy Spirit in them.

A fake believer is a liar who says they have believed but haven't. The Bible calls them "false brethren'.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’ve proved you have to actually do something by quoting the relevant scriptures in post #2056.

I did. In every post.

Did you see the one in Matthew 25 where they didn’t do something and were sent to the “eternal fire?” What about that means eternal security to you?

Read Matthew 25:31-46 and answer honestly. Do you think someone who believes in Jesus, but doesn’t help those in need will be rewarded with eternal life? If yes, quote the scripture to justify your position or stand debunked.

I already commented on this passage to another poster. However, I'll enlighten you now.

The key is the final verse in the passage:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The passage is about sheep and goats.

v.46 says "the righteous will go to eternal life". That is the key. So, who are the righteous? do-gooders? No. Believers.

When a person believes in Christ, they are placed IN Christ (Eph 1:13). This is positional truth. Being IN Christ means the believer shares all that Jesus has. And God imputes or credits Christ's righteousness to the believer.

So when the Bible mentions "the righteous" it is referring to believers, NOT do-gooders as you presume.

So, "sheep" equals believers, and "goats" equals unbelievers. No problem.

 

[Jackson123]

Can you NOT understand my words? I showed you verses that say clearly that those who believe have the Holy Spirit in them.

A fake believer is a liar who says they have believed but haven't. The Bible calls them "false brethren'.

So all real believer have Holy Spirit
is all believer abide to Jesus?

 

[Runningman]

I did. In every post.


I already commented on this passage to another poster. However, I'll enlighten you now.

The key is the final verse in the passage:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The passage is about sheep and goats.

v.46 says "the righteous will go to eternal life". That is the key. So, who are the righteous? do-gooders? No. Believers.

When a person believes in Christ, they are placed IN Christ (Eph 1:13). This is positional truth. Being IN Christ means the believer shares all that Jesus has. And God imputes or credits Christ's righteousness to the believer.

So when the Bible mentions "the righteous" it is referring to believers, NOT do-gooders as you presume.

So, "sheep" equals believers, and "goats" equals unbelievers. No problem.

The context says the righteous do good things and those good things are the reason given for why they are given eternal life.

Faith and works justify someone. I mean, that’s just what the Bible says. So you need to adjust your interpretation.

James 2:24
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I feel like it’s important to reiterate something I said in one of my comments in this thread. Works of the law and good works are different things. People are not justified by law-keeping, but people are justified by faith and good works according to James.

 

[Goliath]

I believe what the Bible teaches. So should you.
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Interesting highlighted quote....God gave the The Holy Spirit, to those who believed.
Why is it that interesting?
Because (Acts 2:38) says we must Repent and be Baptized to receive the Holy Spirit.
So logically, one could conclude from this, "Those who Believe", are Those who do what they are commanded to do. Now I have heard the Old Argument, We do not need to do anything to receive the Holy Spirit. There is evidence for this in the Bible, but you leave out some facts.
What facts?
Brother, When these events took place, the people who received the Holy Spirit, were with those who had...God given authority. For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority (which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction), I should not be ashamed,
(2 Corinthians 10:8)

Now if your teachers can bring folks back from the dead, they probably have this authority, But if they can't, you will need to show your faith and do as commanded....if you want to receive the Holy Spirit.