Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

Here is what I said in Post #1722:

Let me make this simpler for you:​

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If​

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1) faith is fruit of the Spirit; and​

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2) a person must be born again of Holy Spirit in order to have Faith; then​

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3) in your scenario, the person is born again before he/she believes the gospel by which he/she is born again.​

Here is brightfame52 reply:

Yes, a person is born again prior to believing the Gospel of Christ, scripture teaches that,

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In vs 12, the word "received" is translated from the Greek word lambanō. I'm sure you recall the discussion we've had concerning this word, yes?

The word lambanō means:

2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive", see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983 /lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.​

HELPS Word-studies​

What John 1:12-13 tells us is that when the Lord Jesus Christ came to His own (speaking of when He lived in His physical body) those who "actively [laid] hold of to take or receive" the Lord Jesus Christ were given power to become the sons of God.

Please note the verse does not state that those who "actively lay hold of to take or receive" the Lord Jesus Christ are not given "power to believe" as you erroneously claim.

Those who "actively lay hold of to take or receive" are given power to become the sons of God.

So your conclusion concerning John 1:12-13 is faulty and you have yet to prove that "a person is born again prior to believing the Gospel of Christ"

Scripture does not teach "that a person is born again prior to believing the Gospel of Christ":

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (born again).

What you doing is giving men a reason to boast

"giving men a reason to boast" would be the one who holds to the erroneous dogma that he/she "elect".

Proclaiming the truth that all mankind has faith does not give anyone "a reason to boast".

"Oh look, I have a belly button. I'm going to boast because I have a belly button ... oh wait, so do you."

your ludicrous claims border on the ridiculous.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Nope. I read the verse just as written.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

See you not saying what scripture is saying

r i g h t ... me quoting Scripture is not "saying what scripture is saying"

you base Justification on your works

Read the verse again, brightfame52:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

The verse clearly states believing is not works.

Yet you claim that I am saying I "base justification on ... works".

Furthermore, the verse clearly states righteousness is imputed to those who believe on Him that justifieth.

Since it is God Who justifies, and I believe in Him, clearly I am not believing in "my works".

Since I base justification on that which God clearly states is not works, and I believe in God Who justifies, then it is you who needs to seek out from God what God means when He tells us faith is not works and what God means when He tells us to believe on Him Who justifies and He will impute righteousness to those who believe.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Those Christ died for

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

forgiven of sins before they believe

nope. According to Scripture, righteousness is imputed when a person believes:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Scripture does not state "before Abraham believe God it was counted unto him for righteousness".

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

I have already gone over these verses with you, brightfame52.

Here is what I submitted in Post 515:

Quit ripping verses out of context in order to prop up your dogma ...​

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What is written in Romans 4:6-8 is to be understood in light of what is written in Romans 4:1-7. However, if you want to start reading in Romans 4:6-8, go back and read what David wrote in Psalm 32 in order to fully comprehend Romans 4:6-8:​

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Psalm 32:​

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1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.​

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2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.​

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3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.​

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4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.​

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According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:​

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5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.​

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6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.​

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7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.​

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When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.​

What is written in Romans 4 aligns with what is written in Psalm 32. When a person turns to the Lord, the blessing is bestowed upon him/her when they believe ... righteousness is not imputed before a person believes.
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[brightfame52]

Acquitted by the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all !

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Whomever the Us all here is, whose iniquties were laid [caused to light upon] on Him [Christ], hence by that Nothing can be charged to them, they are absolutely acquitted/absolved :

to free from guilt or blame or their consequences:

The y are Justified from all the consequences of their sins, which unbelief is an consequence See Rom 11:32 !

This their acquittal is also confirmed from Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

That word purged means:

C.a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Thats acquittal from the guilt of sin :

the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; culpability:

Now this came about by nothing else but the Death of Christ BY HIMSELF !

No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners, the Truth of it remains a Sacred Fact !

Nothing can be laid to their Charge, not even from God , because by Christ's Death, God is the One that Justified them , cleanse them from the guilt of sin Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

That is all for whom He died and rose again have been by God Justified, acquitted because He laid their iniquties upon Him. Paul also calls it their offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God].AMP 12

 

[brightfame52]

agreed!
but Paul tells us God has made Himself known to all and no one will have excuse for not following God come judgement day. so natural man has a chance to be changed if he chooses when God makes Himself known to him.

A dead man is without hope until he is made alive. Like the Gentiles were Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Natural man has no chance, period !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

We are discussing Romans 4:24. You'll have to try to find another verse which supports your claim that "believing is the evidence of Justification, not the cause" because Romans 4:24 tells us that at the time a person believes, God imputes righteousness to him or her ... right when the person believes ... not before, but when.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Thats fine with what we discussing, nevertheless believing is the evidence of Justification as well as Spiritual life.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind

False statement, no scripture says that.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

According to Scripture, that's not "false":

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Righteousness is imputed before one believes, believing Faith is the evidence of of one already having righteousness imputed.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

You can say that all the livelong day, but you saying it does not make it Scripture. You have not provided chapter or verse from Scripture which corroborates your claim.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The verse states "it was counted unto him". Him is Abraham.

The verse does not say it was imputed "to his mind and heart".

The Justified know nothing of having been justified by Christs blood until they receive the knowledge of it by God given Faith, so we may say Justification or righteousness is imputed to ones conscience at the time of believing, but thats it.

The It there is not Abrahams believing, but the object of Abrahams Faith, Christ our Righteousness.

If you believe a persons Faith or their believing is their righteousness, you ignore Christ being ones Righteousness. Not Good friend.

 

[Sipsey]

Acquitted by the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all !

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Whomever the Us all here is, whose iniquties were laid [caused to light upon] on Him [Christ], hence by that Nothing can be charged to them, they are absolutely acquitted/absolved :

to free from guilt or blame or their consequences:

The y are Justified from all the consequences of their sins, which unbelief is an consequence See Rom 11:32 !

This their acquittal is also confirmed from Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

That word purged means:

C.a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Thats acquittal from the guilt of sin :

the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; culpability:

Now this came about by nothing else but the Death of Christ BY HIMSELF !

No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners, the Truth of it remains a Sacred Fact !

Nothing can be laid to their Charge, not even from God , because by Christ's Death, God is the One that Justified them , cleanse them from the guilt of sin Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

That is all for whom He died and rose again have been by God Justified, acquitted because He laid their iniquties upon Him. Paul also calls it their offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God].AMP 12

Posting verses without their context, is pretext. Why not post the first verse in Isa. 53, that sets the stage for later verses? There is a verse that states, “Man shall not live by. bread alone, but by every word that. proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Without context, this verse is meaningless, as are your postings.
Isaiah 53:1 (KJV)
[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Romans 4:5 corroborates my statement that faith is not works.


Romans 4:5 corroborates my statement that faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 4:5 does not corroborate your statement that anyone "was righteous before God" while they were "ungodly, an unbeliever".

Try again.

Rom 4:5 is clear, God Justifieth the ungodly, that's while ungodly. Justifying is in the present tense, the the ones God is Justifying are the ungodly with the definite article. He is not look at their Faith or their believing, but what they are by nature, ungodly.

Now the reason why He justifies them while they are being ungodly, is because they are covered with the imputed righteousness of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Posting verses without their context, is pretext. Why not post the first verse in Isa. 53, that sets the stage for later verses? There is a verse that states, “Man shall not live by. bread alone, but by every word that. proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Without context, this verse is meaningless, as are your postings.
Isaiah 53:1 (KJV)
[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Posting a verse found in a given context is witnessing the Truth of God !

 

[Sipsey]

Posting a verse found in a given context is witnessing the Truth of God !

I suspect you are a Brooklyn Dodgers fan, and probably a good dodge-ball player as well.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 tells us the gospel of Christ is the power of God and the Lord Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God.

The Gospel is hidden wisdom to the natural man. The Gospel is a Mystery 1 Cor 2:7

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Its only to the Glory of the chosen ones. Christ is the wisdom of God, but its hidden wisdom. Christ must be revealed by His Spirit for a man to believe 1 Cor 2:10


But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

[brightfame52]

renew

You know what 1 Cor 1:23-24 does not mention? 1 Cor 1:23-24 does not mention the mystery.

The wisdom of God, which is Christ, is hidden wisdom, Paul made that clear 1 Cor 2:7

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

The Gospel is hid to them which are lost, and thats all the final unregenerate 2 Cor 4:3-4


3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

As long as a person is in a lost unregenerate state, the Gospel is being hid from them and they wont believe it.

The word hid in Vs 3 is in the perfect tense, so its from the past into the present, its permanently hidden. So Paul is talking about the non elect here who will never believe, but even the elect while in a unregenerate condition, the Gospel is hid from them, like it was for Paul when he was unregenerate.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Do you know what is the mystery of the gospel, brightfame52?

The Gospel is a Mystery, even the Mystery of the Faith 1 Tim 3:9

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

The Gospel being a Mystery isnt limited to the Mystery of the Gentiles, thats just one aspect, the Gospel in general with its Truths is a Mystery to the natural man.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Ephesians 6:

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Again the Mystery of the Gospel isnt secluded to the Gentile inclusion in the Salvation purpose of Gods Israel. The Gospel in general is a Mystery to the Natural man. The Gospel/Christ must be revealed Rom 1:16=17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Christ had to be revealed to Peter Matt 16:16-18

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Church is built upon the same revelation, Christ must be revealed

Paul had Christ revealed in him Gal 1:16

To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

The arm of the Lord, Jesus, must be revealed in order to believe the report about Him Isa 53:1

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

Isaiah is preaching Christ here Isa 53:1ff

 

[brightfame52]

Then according to your own erroneous dogma, you are justified by works.
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No, Thats your belief, you and I dont believe the same.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

There is only one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

And you make human natural faith that one faith, which is law. Jesus says of human faith under the law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So you are bound to keep the law for salvation friend.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus pointed out that the scribes and pharisees were trying to keep the law in an attempt to gain salvation and, in so doing, they missed the whole point of the law because the law pointed to their need for Him.

Since you read Scripture through the lens of your erroneous dogma, you also completely miss the point Jesus made and you have now stated faith = law.

Additionally, you now have the Lord Jesus Christ claiming that "faith is works", which completely contradicts what is written in Scripture. If there is any contradiction in Scripture, the whole Bible falls apart.

If there appears to be contradiction between your dogma and what you see written in Scripture, you are to let go of your erroneous dogma. If there appears to be contradiction in Scripture, you must first look to your own lack of understanding what is written as the issue. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

Thats what you are doing, trying to keep the law by making human faith a requirement for Justification before God. Since you wanna go that route, you must live with the consequences. The only difference between you and the Pharisees is that you make human law Faith to be the only condition for salvation, when they added many more traditions of the law of moses.