Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

sparkeygreg

I am glad someone in this post chain noticed that there has been much said about Christ work applying to the elect. It does benefit those who believe.
HOWEVER- His work was done for all people (unrighteous and ungodly).

Hi sparkeygreg, You are wrong, Justification is solely for Gods Elect, His Israel. Here is the Promise Isa 45:12


In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

The promise is sure to all the SEED Rom 4:16


Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Thats false. The natural man is dead to God.

we were born as natural man and now after repenting we are spiritual men. you can't have it any other way. you were not born any different than anyone else.

 

[brightfame52]

we were born as natural man and now after repenting we are spiritual men. you can't have it any other way. you were not born any different than anyone else.

Natural man is dead to God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Natural man is dead to God.

and still God knew every natural man in their mothers womb as He carefully knitted and weaved them together. may God have the same compassion towards you that you have for the natural man!

 

[Sipsey]

and still God knew every natural man in their mothers womb as He carefully knitted and weaved them together. may God have the same compassion towards you that you have for the natural man!

I believe he prefers judgement, to grace. Most off-base doctrines come from a misunderstanding of grace, IMO.

 

[Magenta]

I believe he prefers judgement, to grace. Most off-base doctrines come from a misunderstanding of grace, IMO.

Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,
but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!'

 

[Sipsey]

Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,
but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!'

Amen!

 

[Magenta]

Amen!

From Ezekiel 33:11
Thank you for the inspiration!

I may shrink the text a tad and add another verse:

Even if He causes grief, He will show compassion according to His abundant loving devotion.

 

[Sipsey]

His forgiveness is beyond measure, with a simple change of heart.

 

[Magenta]

His forgiveness is beyond measure, with a simple change of heart.

From Ezekiel 33:11 + Lamentations 3:32-33

 

[brightfame52]

Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven !

Those Christ died for are forgiven of sins before they believe, and while they are enemies, and the reason for this blessedness Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The reason for this blessedness is that aforetime, God had laid or caused to meet their sins upon Christ Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And by this Divine Act of imputation, all those persons whom sins, iniquities had been laid upon Him, they received from God the Judge of all men, acquittal and discharge from them, or they were Justified from them ! Now when did this happen ? When did God lay their sins upon Him ? Well if we look at our text Isa 53:6, the deed was done in the past tense, though His coming to die was yet future from the time of the writing, for it was the Eternal Purpose of God that made the act eternally accomplished, so much so that He was slain from the foundation Rev 13:8 ! Slain for what ? For the sins laid upon upon Him Isa 53:6 ! 12

 

[brightfame52]

and still God knew every natural man in their mothers womb as He carefully knitted and weaved them together. may God have the same compassion towards you that you have for the natural man!

So the natural man is dead to God, he cant do anything unless He is first made alive or born again.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

So the natural man is dead to God, he cant do anything unless He is first made alive or born again.

agreed!
but Paul tells us God has made Himself known to all and no one will have excuse for not following God come judgement day. so natural man has a chance to be changed if he chooses when God makes Himself known to him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

believing is the evidence of Justification, not the cause.

We are discussing Romans 4:24. You'll have to try to find another verse which supports your claim that "believing is the evidence of Justification, not the cause" because Romans 4:24 tells us that at the time a person believes, God imputes righteousness to him or her ... right when the person believes ... not before, but when.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

If a person does not believe, then righteousness is not imputed to him/her.

If a person never believes its because Christ never died for them

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind:


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Righteousness is imputed at the time a person believes.

Thats false

According to Scripture, that's not "false":

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

It may be appropriate to say it was imputed to their mind and heart when they believed.

You can say that all the livelong day, but you saying it does not make it Scripture. You have not provided chapter or verse from Scripture which corroborates your claim.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The verse states "it was counted unto him". Him is Abraham.

The verse does not say it was imputed "to his mind and heart".

They were righteous before God by Christs death while ungodly, an unbeliever. Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 corroborates my statement that faith is not works.


Romans 4:5 corroborates my statement that faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 4:5 does not corroborate your statement that anyone "was righteous before God" while they were "ungodly, an unbeliever".

Try again.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The Gospel is a Mystery, and its Spiritual, and its hidden wisdom of God. Preaching Christ is preaching the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:23-24

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 tells us the gospel of Christ is the power of God and the Lord Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God.

1 Cor 1:23-24 corroborates what is written in Rom 1:16 – that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

1 Cor 1:23-24 corroborates what is written in Col 2:2-3 – that in Christ is hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

You know what 1 Cor 1:23-24 does not mention? 1 Cor 1:23-24 does not mention the mystery.

So just because 1 Cor 1:24 mentions the wisdom of God, that does not automatically indicate the Author is speaking of the mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7).

The Gospel Paul says is a Mystery Eph 6:19

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Do you know what is the mystery of the gospel, brightfame52?

Ephesians 3:

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


The mystery ... which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men is that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel.


And Paul's prayer in Ephesians 6:19 is that he, Paul, would be able to preach the mystery of the gospel. At the time Paul wrote his letter to the church at Ephesus, he was in prison. And the reason he was in prison was because of the mystery of the gospel:

Ephesians 6:

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Rom 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

Well now, here again, we have a verse which we need to look at more closely.

If, as you claim, the preaching of the gospel is the same as the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom of 1 Cor 2:7, then, according to Rom 16:25, it was kept secret since the world began.

If, as you claim, the "gospel" was kept secret since the world began, then what "gospel" did the Lord Jesus Christ teach? Because clearly the Lord Jesus Christ preached the gospel.

Additionally, Romans 16:25 does not even tell us what is the revelation of the mystery. The revelation of the mystery was not revealed until Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians.

There is no way you can get around it, the natural man doesnt receive the Gospel and cannot understand it 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Nope. According to 1 Cor 2:6, Paul and those who were more mature (perfect = of full age, mature) spoke of deeper spiritual truths ... the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom according to 1 Cor 2:7:

1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [of full age, mature]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought.

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom [deeper spiritual truths than the gospel], which God ordained before the world unto our glory


I know your dogma will not allow you to consider that the gospel is a much more simple truth that is understood by mankind and further that once believed, the born again one is to grow up and mature to the point of understanding the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.

Your rendering of 1 Cor 2:13-14 is in error.
Your rendering of Eph 6:19 is in error.
Your rendering of Rom 16:25 is in error.


I have now explained to you the difference between the simple truth of the gospel and the deeper truths concerning the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7).

I'm sure you'll dismiss the distinction as some sort of "rabbit trail" because you really are not interested in the truth of Scripture. You are only interested in propping up your erroneous dogma.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

One issue with your dogma is you believe faith on the part of mankind is "works" and I have shown you that God specifically tells us faith is not works.

I have never denied Justification by Faith

Then according to your own erroneous dogma, you are justified by works.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus pointed out that the scribes and pharisees were trying to keep the law in an attempt to gain salvation and, in so doing, they missed the whole point of the law because the law pointed to their need for Him.

Thats what you doing. Make your human faith

There is only one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism



Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Do you know what is the purpose of the law, brightfame52?

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The purpose of the law is to lead mankind to Messiah so that mankind might be justified by faith. The keeping of the law was never intended as a means of salvation ... salvation is wholly by grace through faith. That is clearly written in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus pointed out that the scribes and pharisees were trying to keep the law in an attempt to gain salvation and, in so doing, they missed the whole point of the law because the law pointed to their need for Him.

Since you read Scripture through the lens of your erroneous dogma, you also completely miss the point Jesus made and you have now stated faith = law.

Additionally, you now have the Lord Jesus Christ claiming that "faith is works", which completely contradicts what is written in Scripture. If there is any contradiction in Scripture, the whole Bible falls apart.

If there appears to be contradiction between your dogma and what you see written in Scripture, you are to let go of your erroneous dogma. If there appears to be contradiction in Scripture, you must first look to your own lack of understanding what is written as the issue. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Then according to your own dogma, you are justified by works of the law

False accusation !

Nope.


You have clearly stated "Faith is required under the Law":

Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Faith is required under the Law

You have clearly stated "faith must be in accordance with the law":

faith must be in accordance with the law

You have concluded your erroneous understanding concerning faith because you believe faith is works even though faith is not works as God plainly tells us in Romans 4:2-5

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


I didn't write the book. I just believe what the Author of Scripture wrote.

That you have a problem with what is written is between you and God ... the Author of Scripture.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

All I am doing is holding you to the truth of Scripture and shining a light on the error of your dogma.

Faith is of Grace Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The "it" referred to in Romans 4:16 is the promise to Abraham which is through the righteousness of faith (Rom 4:13):

Romans 4:

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham ...


Romans 4:13-16 reiterates what is written in Romans 4:2-5 ... that faith is not works and righteousness is imputed, not through the works of the law, but by grace to those who worketh not, but believeth on Him Romans 4:5.


Romans 4:13-16 makes clear that if righteousness is through the law, then faith is made void and the promise of God is made of none effect.


For you to conclude that faith = law, you are stating righteousness comes through the law and if righteousness comes through the law, then faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect (Rom 4:14).
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

There is a human faith, and there is faith

More of your made up nonsense because you hold to your erroneous dogma.

Scripture tells us there is one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism


Because you cannot let go of the error in your dogma, you make claims which are Scripturally unsupported.

You are to align your dogma with Scripture and where your dogma does not align, get rid of your erroneous dogma and hold to Scripture.

James 2:19

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Is the devils faith to believe in God the same Faith

Look at the words in the Greek, brightfame52:

Thou believest – believest is the Greek word pisteuō

The devils also believe – believe is the Greek word pisteuō

Does pisteuō = pisteuō? I'm sure you'll find some sort of way to deny the truth of Scripture here.


And please note, your claim "the devils faith to believe in God" ...

James 2:19 does not state the devils believe in God. James 2:19 states the devils believe there is one God.

satan knows Who God is. satan is willingly rebellious against God. satan holds himself equal with God (Isaiah 14:14 – I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High).
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