The Faith OF Christ...
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This is an issue of translation to a now-archaic form of English, but it has become an issue of doctrine.
You think "of" is archaic? what about a watchtower member they think the bible left an a out of 1 john 1 to read a god, You really think for 100s of years people didn't understand what of means? Arnt you doing the same thing with Did God really say, or did God really mean
you copy and pasted a lot of verses that said "your faith" that didn't back up your point at all
And your argument was that "of" is so archaic they didn't really know what it meant? until 30 years ago because now we have modernized "of", I think the writers knew what of means better than you do, But your mass of verses don't undo the point of what saves us and the point is your not saved by faith, So if not your faith then what is left, that's the question where you will find your answer and if you are honest you will find the scriptures where right all along
If you can answer a question we can move on if not your not been honest, Do you think your saved by your faith?
This is an issue of translation to a now-archaic form of English, but it has become an issue of doctrine.
You think "of" is archaic? what about a watchtower member they think the bible left an a out of 1 john 1 to read a god, You really think for 100s of years people didn't understand what of means? Arnt you doing the same thing with Did God really say, or did God really mean
you copy and pasted a lot of verses that said "your faith" that didn't back up your point at all
And your argument was that "of" is so archaic they didn't really know what it meant? until 30 years ago because now we have modernized "of", I think the writers knew what of means better than you do, But your mass of verses don't undo the point of what saves us and the point is your not saved by faith, So if not your faith then what is left, that's the question where you will find your answer and if you are honest you will find the scriptures where right all along
If you can answer a question we can move on if not your not been honest, Do you think your saved by your faith?
“Faith needs to believe you will get rewarded?”
do you disagree with scriptire then that’s our problem
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6 KJV
I’m more here discussing what’s there in scriptire not what I think it should say . your saying they have it all wrong who wrote that and your reasoning is how one should look at it ? Why can’t you guys just say okay scriptire probably is the source of what I should believe ?
this warning is for the hypergracers and Paulina’s written by Peter
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
2 Peter 3:15-17 KJV
when you guys pluck hypergrace berses fromthe context and make entire posts based on “ the faith of Christ “and how that eliminates what’s plainly written on the same epistles it’s a distortion and smokescreen that leads people astray from what the Bible tells them they need to ac try ally do and yes God has said I will reward you who do these things
he has never said “ I’ve done everything for you there’s nothing for you to learn and do you have no responsibility and you now don’t need to obey the gospel because. Ow you have a mystery faith that believes in the term grace and how it elongates Gods word out all these matters
like that we must believe not only that he exists , but that he is a rewarded of those who are diligent in seeking after him just exactly what it plainly says the only difference is I’m not afraid of what it actually says to believe I don’t have the hyper grace lie corrupting my view of scripture I don’t try to divide out everything that says I have things to do and rewards to receive later
it’s basic stuff
“Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”
1 Corinthians 3:8 KJV
“And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.”
Matthew 10:42 KJV
Godnis always going to keep his words when we all do this one day
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10
I suppose some won’t believe that until they are there but that day is going to be just like he’s saying it won’t matter what Joseph prince told us at that point we won’t be able to say “ lord that’s not faith I’m already saved “
he’s already laid salvation before us it’s well explained in the gospel but Jesus hasn’t done everything for us that we’re supposed to do he has made us able to do what we’re supposed to do so we can be saved and inherit the kingdom just all the stuff he said when he preached the gospel
This is what Jesus has done for us regarding what we do
“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”
Philippians 4:13 KJV
it isn’t there’s nothing to do now I have faith I don’t need to hear and obey the lord I’m saved “
It is Christ has given me his spirit so I can overcome and follow him forever
do you disagree with scriptire then that’s our problem
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6 KJV
I’m more here discussing what’s there in scriptire not what I think it should say . your saying they have it all wrong who wrote that and your reasoning is how one should look at it ? Why can’t you guys just say okay scriptire probably is the source of what I should believe ?
this warning is for the hypergracers and Paulina’s written by Peter
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
2 Peter 3:15-17 KJV
when you guys pluck hypergrace berses fromthe context and make entire posts based on “ the faith of Christ “and how that eliminates what’s plainly written on the same epistles it’s a distortion and smokescreen that leads people astray from what the Bible tells them they need to ac try ally do and yes God has said I will reward you who do these things
he has never said “ I’ve done everything for you there’s nothing for you to learn and do you have no responsibility and you now don’t need to obey the gospel because. Ow you have a mystery faith that believes in the term grace and how it elongates Gods word out all these matters
like that we must believe not only that he exists , but that he is a rewarded of those who are diligent in seeking after him just exactly what it plainly says the only difference is I’m not afraid of what it actually says to believe I don’t have the hyper grace lie corrupting my view of scripture I don’t try to divide out everything that says I have things to do and rewards to receive later
it’s basic stuff
“Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”
1 Corinthians 3:8 KJV
“And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.”
Matthew 10:42 KJV
Godnis always going to keep his words when we all do this one day
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10
I suppose some won’t believe that until they are there but that day is going to be just like he’s saying it won’t matter what Joseph prince told us at that point we won’t be able to say “ lord that’s not faith I’m already saved “
he’s already laid salvation before us it’s well explained in the gospel but Jesus hasn’t done everything for us that we’re supposed to do he has made us able to do what we’re supposed to do so we can be saved and inherit the kingdom just all the stuff he said when he preached the gospel
This is what Jesus has done for us regarding what we do
“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”
Philippians 4:13 KJV
it isn’t there’s nothing to do now I have faith I don’t need to hear and obey the lord I’m saved “
It is Christ has given me his spirit so I can overcome and follow him forever
Its your application of scripture i would disagree with, I think you will will find your the one diagreeing with scripture, seen you think you have to change what it says
Hypergracers and paulinas? where did that come from
your a walking contradiction..... that's what im saying the whole time, your arguing that the bible was wrong and modern translations had to fix it....lol for 500 years everyone had a false bible according to you
Look your mixing concepts and verses out of context, I didn't say God doesn't reward faith, if you expect something in return like an exchange its not love its works, thats different concepts Yes God rewards Faith that doesn't mean you can do things expecting payment, its completely separate situation, you mix concepts and apply things to what they dont apply to, and your doing it with salvation thats why you gotta slip your faith in there, Salvation and rewards are different concepts, salvation is given as a gift, if you are given this gift, do you still have to put faith in you might one day get this gift when you already have it thats absurd, but if you dont have it I guess you can try exercise your faith and hope you might get it one day
2 Cor 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Do you have it today? or do you hope one day in the future you hope to get it
Hypergracers and paulinas? where did that come from
your a walking contradiction..... that's what im saying the whole time, your arguing that the bible was wrong and modern translations had to fix it....lol for 500 years everyone had a false bible according to you
Look your mixing concepts and verses out of context, I didn't say God doesn't reward faith, if you expect something in return like an exchange its not love its works, thats different concepts Yes God rewards Faith that doesn't mean you can do things expecting payment, its completely separate situation, you mix concepts and apply things to what they dont apply to, and your doing it with salvation thats why you gotta slip your faith in there, Salvation and rewards are different concepts, salvation is given as a gift, if you are given this gift, do you still have to put faith in you might one day get this gift when you already have it thats absurd, but if you dont have it I guess you can try exercise your faith and hope you might get it one day
2 Cor 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Do you have it today? or do you hope one day in the future you hope to get it
I actually stopped reading because you where not been coherent but im glad i went back to try decipher your train of though, You mixing rewards with salvation that is a gift
Have you heard of crowns? what rewards do you think you earn? do you even know that's talking about rewards not salvation?
And hear is why i'm glad i kept reading, False Gospel on display loud and clear, Jesus did it all when it comes to salvation your message is Galatians 1:8
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God
Heres the Gospel Message
1 Corinthians 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
Have you heard of crowns? what rewards do you think you earn? do you even know that's talking about rewards not salvation?
And hear is why i'm glad i kept reading, False Gospel on display loud and clear, Jesus did it all when it comes to salvation your message is Galatians 1:8
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God
Heres the Gospel Message
1 Corinthians 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
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"but"?? The grace of God (Eph. 2:8) causes us to believe. I'd put that as an AND.
[quote[2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
You would have to define your interpretation of believe, you can hide a lot behind words out of context, Christians have believed, God accepted their belief one time, and sealed them with the holy spirit of promise, WE could discuss how you think someone may be able to undo that?[/quote]
Well, the context of that verse is regarding denial, is it not? So then, "if we believe not" has a nuance to that context. I don't think it means lacking any faith in Christ, because that would contradict Peter's statement that we are kept by the power of God through faith. For Peter's statement to be true, our faith in Christ is maintained by the Holy Spirit. Further, it's talking about the kind of faith that comes from the heart (Rom. 10:10), which is out of the spirit of the believer, since the Holy Spirit does not depart from the believer. Therefore I take it that "if we believe not" in 2 Tim. 2:13 has to do with the fleshly fears of persecution. Faith in Christ that is maintained by the Holy Spirit might be obscured by fear of the fleshly mind. Even as Christians there is a natural component in us that often falls short of Christlike behavior.
But your statement begs a question about what you're assuming about my statement. Apparently you think that I think someone might be able to undo the seal of the Spirit? So where is that idea coming from?
100% agree.
Bible corrector?? just what do you think I'm trying to do? "All scripture ... for correction..." If I see something wrong with what someone says, it is my duty to use scripture to correct it, as you also are trying to do here. I'm trying to correct the nonsense about us being saved without any faith. The testing of our faith is more precious than gold, so say the apostles. Why do you think they said that? It's certainly not for God's benefit, so it must be for our benefit. Because the bottom line is that our faith is the only thing we have to show us that God is with us. If we have forgotten all the miracles and promises, and are so down and out that we can't see any fruit of the Spirit in our life, trusting Christ is the only thing we will have to prove we are still in the kingdom, and justified.
Why do you think John wrote "if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything." I do suppose you are on the same page about this. He wrote this in order to bring out the faith that resides in our heart that we can't see in that dark hour. If a person who considers himself faithless knows this statement, he will rely on God to keep him in forgiveness and grace - which is an exercise of faith.
Right, yet a mustard seed can be seen. So then, how does this support your idea that a person is saved without faith?
I don't see this question as relevant. Where exactly in the scripture do you think salvation is judged by someone's faith? Eph. 2:8-10 is very clear how salvation comes to us, and is not relevant to any judgment. Our deeds are judged. The Christian is judged in this world through tribulations, which makes us Christlike in character (Heb. 12). The unbeliever will be judged in the final day of the Lord. No one's salvation is judged by anyone's faith as far as I can tell. Can you give a scripture quote?
Ok, are you arguing against something here? When I say that our faith is a gift of God, who do you think I am glorifying?
[quote[2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
You would have to define your interpretation of believe, you can hide a lot behind words out of context, Christians have believed, God accepted their belief one time, and sealed them with the holy spirit of promise, WE could discuss how you think someone may be able to undo that?[/quote]
Well, the context of that verse is regarding denial, is it not? So then, "if we believe not" has a nuance to that context. I don't think it means lacking any faith in Christ, because that would contradict Peter's statement that we are kept by the power of God through faith. For Peter's statement to be true, our faith in Christ is maintained by the Holy Spirit. Further, it's talking about the kind of faith that comes from the heart (Rom. 10:10), which is out of the spirit of the believer, since the Holy Spirit does not depart from the believer. Therefore I take it that "if we believe not" in 2 Tim. 2:13 has to do with the fleshly fears of persecution. Faith in Christ that is maintained by the Holy Spirit might be obscured by fear of the fleshly mind. Even as Christians there is a natural component in us that often falls short of Christlike behavior.
But your statement begs a question about what you're assuming about my statement. Apparently you think that I think someone might be able to undo the seal of the Spirit? So where is that idea coming from?
100% agree.
Bible corrector?? just what do you think I'm trying to do? "All scripture ... for correction..." If I see something wrong with what someone says, it is my duty to use scripture to correct it, as you also are trying to do here. I'm trying to correct the nonsense about us being saved without any faith. The testing of our faith is more precious than gold, so say the apostles. Why do you think they said that? It's certainly not for God's benefit, so it must be for our benefit. Because the bottom line is that our faith is the only thing we have to show us that God is with us. If we have forgotten all the miracles and promises, and are so down and out that we can't see any fruit of the Spirit in our life, trusting Christ is the only thing we will have to prove we are still in the kingdom, and justified.
Why do you think John wrote "if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything." I do suppose you are on the same page about this. He wrote this in order to bring out the faith that resides in our heart that we can't see in that dark hour. If a person who considers himself faithless knows this statement, he will rely on God to keep him in forgiveness and grace - which is an exercise of faith.
Right, yet a mustard seed can be seen. So then, how does this support your idea that a person is saved without faith?
I don't see this question as relevant. Where exactly in the scripture do you think salvation is judged by someone's faith? Eph. 2:8-10 is very clear how salvation comes to us, and is not relevant to any judgment. Our deeds are judged. The Christian is judged in this world through tribulations, which makes us Christlike in character (Heb. 12). The unbeliever will be judged in the final day of the Lord. No one's salvation is judged by anyone's faith as far as I can tell. Can you give a scripture quote?
Ok, are you arguing against something here? When I say that our faith is a gift of God, who do you think I am glorifying?
This KJV rendering is confusing, because the context shows that Paul is talking about faith in Christ, which he actually states it in the very next phrase of Gal. 2:16. Therefore, the modern versions which render it "faith in Christ" is correct according to the context. Both Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 3:9 which are the 2 places the KJV renders it "the faith of Christ" contextually means "faith in Christ." The KJV translators rendered it that way to mean "the faith regarding Christ" which is the Christian faith where we become followers and disciples of Jesus, applying His words in our lives. In Phil 3:9 it is proven by the fact that he says this faith justifies us, as he does in Rom. ch. 3 and 5 where he says that our faith in Christ justifies us. So comparing these various scripture contexts, it becomes apparent that "the faith of Christ" actually means "our faith in Christ."
This KJV rendering is confusing, because the context shows that Paul is talking about faith in Christ, which he actually states it in the very next phrase of Gal. 2:16. Therefore, the modern versions which render it "faith in Christ" is correct according to the context. Both Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 3:9 which are the 2 places the KJV renders it "the faith of Christ" contextually means "faith in Christ."
The KJV translators rendered it that way to mean "the faith regarding Christ" which is the Christian faith where we become followers and disciples of Jesus, applying His words in our lives. In Phil 3:9 it is proven by the fact that he says this faith justifies us, as he does in Rom. ch. 3 and 5 where he says that our faith in Christ justifies us. So comparing these various scripture contexts, it becomes apparent that "the faith of Christ" actually means "our faith in Christ."
Therefore, it doesn't matter if the word "of" or "in" is used, since it means the same thing in the context in which it is used, both in Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 3:9.
The KJV translators rendered it that way to mean "the faith regarding Christ" which is the Christian faith where we become followers and disciples of Jesus, applying His words in our lives. In Phil 3:9 it is proven by the fact that he says this faith justifies us, as he does in Rom. ch. 3 and 5 where he says that our faith in Christ justifies us. So comparing these various scripture contexts, it becomes apparent that "the faith of Christ" actually means "our faith in Christ."
Therefore, it doesn't matter if the word "of" or "in" is used, since it means the same thing in the context in which it is used, both in Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 3:9.
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You came in "I think you're confused by the KJV translation." lol then your point was "then I could be faithless and still be saved, no? I hope this isn't what you're trying to say"
I corrected you with scripture, I showed you a verse where God says exactly that
I wasn't assuming you think you can undo the seal of the holy spirit but simply if our salvation was maintained or through our faith we would all fail, But through the faith of Jesus nothing could go wrong, its either or I don't see an in-between if you bring salvation into the equation, Faith in Jesus For Salvation Faith in our father to please him after
The point I made you didn't seem to like is your faith isn't your savior and if you try to make it one you will fail your standard because like I said what is your measure or standard, Now If Jesus is our standard you should put your faith in that if your faith has a standard you will try put your faith in that as your saviour
Yea your first Line you wrote
I didn't say you don't need faith I said faith doesn't save you, You can say through Faith but your faith isn't your savior, feel free to point out the error because I think I missed it in the detail, But I think your error is found in the verse
What version do you prefer
2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
That's the verse you got stuck on
I didn't say that, I said people can lose faith and god remains faithful after they are born again of course or they were never his children, but i also said you have to define what your terms of faith are, I said you put your faith in Jesus and God accepts your faith one time and seals you with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eternal Life, Which is Jesus in you, After that how does God Deal with you, if you are without chastisement you are not a son, But Salvation is not the issue
Someone had to live a life without sin to defeat death, anything not of faith is sin, Jesus was without sin, Jesus Had no sin but bore our sin and death couldn't keep hold of him and he rose from the grave, Its His life that did it Because he live we live also, So, In my opinion, Jesus had faith, You can say he hadn't, but without faith it is impossible to please God , so I guess your argument is did Jesus have faith?
If I didn't know you it would Depend on who you say your God is and what your faith is in, That's my point Faith In Faith doesn't save anyone, That makes a lot of people angry But your faith isn't your saviour, And the ones that think it is somehow involved seem to be blind to the only thing that matters when it comes to Salvation, sure you can keep saying you need faith but in what is what is important
I corrected you with scripture, I showed you a verse where God says exactly that
I wasn't assuming you think you can undo the seal of the holy spirit but simply if our salvation was maintained or through our faith we would all fail, But through the faith of Jesus nothing could go wrong, its either or I don't see an in-between if you bring salvation into the equation, Faith in Jesus For Salvation Faith in our father to please him after
The point I made you didn't seem to like is your faith isn't your savior and if you try to make it one you will fail your standard because like I said what is your measure or standard, Now If Jesus is our standard you should put your faith in that if your faith has a standard you will try put your faith in that as your saviour
Yea your first Line you wrote
I didn't say you don't need faith I said faith doesn't save you, You can say through Faith but your faith isn't your savior, feel free to point out the error because I think I missed it in the detail, But I think your error is found in the verse
What version do you prefer
2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
That's the verse you got stuck on
I didn't say that, I said people can lose faith and god remains faithful after they are born again of course or they were never his children, but i also said you have to define what your terms of faith are, I said you put your faith in Jesus and God accepts your faith one time and seals you with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eternal Life, Which is Jesus in you, After that how does God Deal with you, if you are without chastisement you are not a son, But Salvation is not the issue
Someone had to live a life without sin to defeat death, anything not of faith is sin, Jesus was without sin, Jesus Had no sin but bore our sin and death couldn't keep hold of him and he rose from the grave, Its His life that did it Because he live we live also, So, In my opinion, Jesus had faith, You can say he hadn't, but without faith it is impossible to please God , so I guess your argument is did Jesus have faith?
If I didn't know you it would Depend on who you say your God is and what your faith is in, That's my point Faith In Faith doesn't save anyone, That makes a lot of people angry But your faith isn't your saviour, And the ones that think it is somehow involved seem to be blind to the only thing that matters when it comes to Salvation, sure you can keep saying you need faith but in what is what is important
“Its your application of scripture i would disagree with, I think you will will find your the one diagreeing with scripture, seen you think you have to change what it says”
yes that’s the hyper grace stance anytime you guys see what’s there it just says what it says
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6
there’s no way to misapply this lol it’s the Bible explaining a point about faith it’s not a debate it’s whether one will believe it or reject it and say “ it’s being misapplied “
all you have to do is acknowledge what it says and let it correct what you think that’s how faith works if you accept the word and what’s really there you have this
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
this promise doesn’t exist without what Jesus said. If we refuse to accept what’s actually there you have this
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
So his word that’s what teaches us what to do d what not to do anymore. That is where one learns faith you have to hear what Jesus said about everlasting salvation it’s the only way to be saved
the word he’s talking about saving us or judging us is his teachkngs
like this if we accept this it can save us from perishing
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
that’s one simple example of Gods word of warning to those who believe in him and it’s an instruction that directs us how to live and not perish a simple truth if we don’t repent we’re going to perish like all sinners that’s why God is so patient and longsuffering with us
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
he doesn’t want us to perish so he’s instructed us in repentance and righteousness but it’s things we’re supposed to learn from Jesus and apply actually do .
it’s just the hyoergrace lie that is why come can’t accept what’s there so we have to insist it’s “misapplied “
in reality it’s in every epistle in the New Testament and throughout every page of the Bible so it can’t be misunderstood
it is what we actually do and don’t do that’s going to determine our end , Gods work in us is to make us well able and take our excuses away to remain in sin
again I’m not sure how this is misapplied when it’s plainly the apostles teaching these thkngs like “God is a rewarded of those who are diligent in seeking him” that’s not misapplication it’s truth being spoken to us in scriptire our place is to accept it and let it correct what we thought before of the Bible says something and we think different it’s the at way to correct us the scriptire will always say the same thing it will always speak the same message it always has
when we use the term “ grace “ to eliminate the things the Bible plainly teaches us to believe it’s the hyoergrace books that are wrong not the scripture
yes that’s the hyper grace stance anytime you guys see what’s there it just says what it says
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6
there’s no way to misapply this lol it’s the Bible explaining a point about faith it’s not a debate it’s whether one will believe it or reject it and say “ it’s being misapplied “
all you have to do is acknowledge what it says and let it correct what you think that’s how faith works if you accept the word and what’s really there you have this
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
this promise doesn’t exist without what Jesus said. If we refuse to accept what’s actually there you have this
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
So his word that’s what teaches us what to do d what not to do anymore. That is where one learns faith you have to hear what Jesus said about everlasting salvation it’s the only way to be saved
the word he’s talking about saving us or judging us is his teachkngs
like this if we accept this it can save us from perishing
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
that’s one simple example of Gods word of warning to those who believe in him and it’s an instruction that directs us how to live and not perish a simple truth if we don’t repent we’re going to perish like all sinners that’s why God is so patient and longsuffering with us
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
he doesn’t want us to perish so he’s instructed us in repentance and righteousness but it’s things we’re supposed to learn from Jesus and apply actually do .
it’s just the hyoergrace lie that is why come can’t accept what’s there so we have to insist it’s “misapplied “
in reality it’s in every epistle in the New Testament and throughout every page of the Bible so it can’t be misunderstood
it is what we actually do and don’t do that’s going to determine our end , Gods work in us is to make us well able and take our excuses away to remain in sin
again I’m not sure how this is misapplied when it’s plainly the apostles teaching these thkngs like “God is a rewarded of those who are diligent in seeking him” that’s not misapplication it’s truth being spoken to us in scriptire our place is to accept it and let it correct what we thought before of the Bible says something and we think different it’s the at way to correct us the scriptire will always say the same thing it will always speak the same message it always has
when we use the term “ grace “ to eliminate the things the Bible plainly teaches us to believe it’s the hyoergrace books that are wrong not the scripture
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Did I say that? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
Fallacy: Red herring.
Did I say that? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
You have no idea what I know.
Those are your words, not the words of Scripture.
I already have the answer: we are saved through our faith in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ.
Answered above.
Fallacy: Red herring.
Did I say that? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
You have no idea what I know.
Those are your words, not the words of Scripture.
I already have the answer: we are saved through our faith in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ.
Answered above.
This is a strawman argument, because nowhere did I even imply that faith was a savior. Faith is trust in God, and it is God who saves.
Let me quote for you the apostle James: "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" According to your logic, I suppose you think James is wrong here, that he thinks faith is a savior. Is that what you think?
Another straw man point, and it falls far short, because I well-explained the verse. You're the one stuck on it.
Salvation is an issue with losing faith, otherwise why all the warnings about apostasy? What is the reason for the exercise? The doctrine of eternal security does nothing for a person who "receives the gospel with joy, but falls away because of the cares of this life" (Mat. 13:20-21). Endurance of faith is a necessary element for a person to know he is eternally secure (Mk. 13:13, 1 Tim. 4:16, Col. 1:21-23).
So, if your phrase "lose faith" doesn't mean apostasy, then I need your exact definition of it before I could begin to agree with what you're saying.
I suppose this may be a controversial question, because it depends on a viewpoint or an agenda as to how you interpret it. Nowhere in scripture does it declare that Jesus had faith, especially the same kind of faith that we are commanded to have. It becomes obvious, since Jesus was the 2nd person of the Trinity, He had love and trust for the Father. Yet He said "I do whatever I see My Father doing," so if one dares say He had faith, it was a faith so close to sight, that one might not call it faith.
Conversely, Heb. 11:1 defines faith as hoping in something not seen. We have the promise of God, and so we hope in something that is totally beyond us. Was the promise of God totally beyond Jesus? Was Jesus dependent on God in all things as we are, since we really don't know, and are relying on the scripture to tell us what we don't know? This is a far cry from Jesus' intimate relationship with the Father. The only thing Jesus ever admitted He didn't know was something related only to His humanness.
IMO failing to acknowledge the distinction between the natural and spiritual will keep concepts like faith vague and subjective. I've already mentioned this by saying that faith of the NT is a spiritual matter. People who think that faith is something natural that comes from natural reasoning will not understand the faith described in the NT.
You really don't know me, and it appears to me you are projecting something on my words that I clearly denied. I already agreed that faith in faith doesn't save anyone, yet here you are harping on it again. It shows me you have an agenda that doesn't have scripture as a priority. If scripture was your top priority, you would be using it to explain your position, rather than repeating the same opinions without scriptural support.
The bottom line is, if a person loses his belief in Christ, such a person has nothing to stand on for any assurance that he is justified before God. Lost faith puts into question if he ever had NT faith at all. Mat. 13:21, Mat. 7:21.
Let me quote for you the apostle James: "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" According to your logic, I suppose you think James is wrong here, that he thinks faith is a savior. Is that what you think?
Another straw man point, and it falls far short, because I well-explained the verse. You're the one stuck on it.
Salvation is an issue with losing faith, otherwise why all the warnings about apostasy? What is the reason for the exercise? The doctrine of eternal security does nothing for a person who "receives the gospel with joy, but falls away because of the cares of this life" (Mat. 13:20-21). Endurance of faith is a necessary element for a person to know he is eternally secure (Mk. 13:13, 1 Tim. 4:16, Col. 1:21-23).
So, if your phrase "lose faith" doesn't mean apostasy, then I need your exact definition of it before I could begin to agree with what you're saying.
I suppose this may be a controversial question, because it depends on a viewpoint or an agenda as to how you interpret it. Nowhere in scripture does it declare that Jesus had faith, especially the same kind of faith that we are commanded to have. It becomes obvious, since Jesus was the 2nd person of the Trinity, He had love and trust for the Father. Yet He said "I do whatever I see My Father doing," so if one dares say He had faith, it was a faith so close to sight, that one might not call it faith.
Conversely, Heb. 11:1 defines faith as hoping in something not seen. We have the promise of God, and so we hope in something that is totally beyond us. Was the promise of God totally beyond Jesus? Was Jesus dependent on God in all things as we are, since we really don't know, and are relying on the scripture to tell us what we don't know? This is a far cry from Jesus' intimate relationship with the Father. The only thing Jesus ever admitted He didn't know was something related only to His humanness.
IMO failing to acknowledge the distinction between the natural and spiritual will keep concepts like faith vague and subjective. I've already mentioned this by saying that faith of the NT is a spiritual matter. People who think that faith is something natural that comes from natural reasoning will not understand the faith described in the NT.
You really don't know me, and it appears to me you are projecting something on my words that I clearly denied. I already agreed that faith in faith doesn't save anyone, yet here you are harping on it again. It shows me you have an agenda that doesn't have scripture as a priority. If scripture was your top priority, you would be using it to explain your position, rather than repeating the same opinions without scriptural support.
The bottom line is, if a person loses his belief in Christ, such a person has nothing to stand on for any assurance that he is justified before God. Lost faith puts into question if he ever had NT faith at all. Mat. 13:21, Mat. 7:21.
Yeah it’s pointless to try to discuss scripture with the hypergracers you have to reject everything me try to reason it all away look though can I ask you a very simple question ? Is this about salvation or not ?
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
or this is this about salvstion ?
“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
Galatians 6:7-9
lol or is “ everlasting life “ not about salvstion now the res some others salvation ?
I already understand you won’t acknolwedge the question I asked is Paul explain about how our deeds will determine salvstion and we need to repent ? In Roman’s there it remember is not a pea me that needs to be deciphered he’s making a statement about eternal judgement to the church
can you acknolwedge our jidgement will be according to the things we have done good or bad and that’s about salvstion I mean it’s kind of plain right ?
God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
paul Is just preaching basic fundamental things Jesus taught
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29 KJV
that about salvstion or is damnation really salvstion ?
“unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
so those who continue on obeying sin and Unrighteousness what they do , receive indignation , wrath , tribulation , anguish upon tbier soul “
and those who co ti he in doing good receive this Reward of eternal life
“render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”
and your saying it’s not about salvstion. It some secret reward ? Like money or gold or what will we need on heavens kingdom ? That is the inheritance it is the reward for seeking Jesus to inherit his eternal kingdom that is salvstion
but anywho I already understand your position and that you can’t accept anything Paul said about what we do d that we’re obligated and need to work our own salvstion our with fear and teen king and what happens if we do t repent of serving sin ect that stuff all gets divided out but the word grace
I never really contend with the grace doctrine anymore you all can never accept what’s really there you act like the Bible is a riddle and everything g means something else but it’s just straight forward and plain so we can understand it freely
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
or this is this about salvstion ?
“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
Galatians 6:7-9
lol or is “ everlasting life “ not about salvstion now the res some others salvation ?
I already understand you won’t acknolwedge the question I asked is Paul explain about how our deeds will determine salvstion and we need to repent ? In Roman’s there it remember is not a pea me that needs to be deciphered he’s making a statement about eternal judgement to the church
can you acknolwedge our jidgement will be according to the things we have done good or bad and that’s about salvstion I mean it’s kind of plain right ?
God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
paul Is just preaching basic fundamental things Jesus taught
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29 KJV
that about salvstion or is damnation really salvstion ?
“unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
so those who continue on obeying sin and Unrighteousness what they do , receive indignation , wrath , tribulation , anguish upon tbier soul “
and those who co ti he in doing good receive this Reward of eternal life
“render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”
and your saying it’s not about salvstion. It some secret reward ? Like money or gold or what will we need on heavens kingdom ? That is the inheritance it is the reward for seeking Jesus to inherit his eternal kingdom that is salvstion
but anywho I already understand your position and that you can’t accept anything Paul said about what we do d that we’re obligated and need to work our own salvstion our with fear and teen king and what happens if we do t repent of serving sin ect that stuff all gets divided out but the word grace
I never really contend with the grace doctrine anymore you all can never accept what’s really there you act like the Bible is a riddle and everything g means something else but it’s just straight forward and plain so we can understand it freely
Your boggy man is hyper grace because you don't seem to understand grace, thats on you ive never brought it up you keep bringing it up, Grace annoys you doesn't it
To be honest its hard to keep up with what your on about, I didn't disagree with the verse i disagree with you putting salvation in that verse and thinking your rewarded salvation for your effort, that's works that's not Christianity, that's not how you are saved
Yea so you actually do put your faith in the one that did it all when it comes to salvation and proved it by raising from the dead, If you dont do that you will die and unbeliever and there was is no sacrifice for your sin, Look without the shedding of blood there is no remission, you cant do that, but you admit are still caught up with sin, do you know there is a solution for your sin?
I didn't say God doesn't reward, You cant earn Salvation, It is by Grace, your still all about sin and repenting, Like Your pre cross you cant see whats on the other side, look with your out of context non sense, And your false Gospel, I think we are done
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Its all about salvation, The problem we have is through and how we get it, You present works with no gospel and you hope to inheret it, But the fact is you need it before you die, because then it will be too late, but the point is if you don't have it now you are not saved now, and that's clear in your non bible salvation plan, that you admit you hope will work sometime in the future
Today is the day of Salvation don't harden your heart
If we do good its thanks to God working through us without him you couldn't do anything for him,But you dont work to get him you are able to do good because you have him inside you, you say work first get him later? or get something later? if you want to keep looking for works and sin, Here is the work of God = To believe on the one that he sent, And here is the solution for your sins = Jesus died and shed his blood
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Lol really even without asking .... you have no idea who you are dealing with.....You should try and ask and not presume, You cant accept Pauls Gospel that's why your are caught up in the first line of it and still dealing with your sins, You don't contend for grace because you don't understand it, But the fact remains you have to deal with it as we are saved by grace
Try ask questions instead out walls of texts and presuming, We could probably sort this all out if you honestly answer how you think you are saved? and how you stay saved?
To be honest its hard to keep up with what your on about, I didn't disagree with the verse i disagree with you putting salvation in that verse and thinking your rewarded salvation for your effort, that's works that's not Christianity, that's not how you are saved
Yea so you actually do put your faith in the one that did it all when it comes to salvation and proved it by raising from the dead, If you dont do that you will die and unbeliever and there was is no sacrifice for your sin, Look without the shedding of blood there is no remission, you cant do that, but you admit are still caught up with sin, do you know there is a solution for your sin?
I didn't say God doesn't reward, You cant earn Salvation, It is by Grace, your still all about sin and repenting, Like Your pre cross you cant see whats on the other side, look with your out of context non sense, And your false Gospel, I think we are done
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Its all about salvation, The problem we have is through and how we get it, You present works with no gospel and you hope to inheret it, But the fact is you need it before you die, because then it will be too late, but the point is if you don't have it now you are not saved now, and that's clear in your non bible salvation plan, that you admit you hope will work sometime in the future
Today is the day of Salvation don't harden your heart
If we do good its thanks to God working through us without him you couldn't do anything for him,But you dont work to get him you are able to do good because you have him inside you, you say work first get him later? or get something later? if you want to keep looking for works and sin, Here is the work of God = To believe on the one that he sent, And here is the solution for your sins = Jesus died and shed his blood
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Lol really even without asking .... you have no idea who you are dealing with.....You should try and ask and not presume, You cant accept Pauls Gospel that's why your are caught up in the first line of it and still dealing with your sins, You don't contend for grace because you don't understand it, But the fact remains you have to deal with it as we are saved by grace
Try ask questions instead out walls of texts and presuming, We could probably sort this all out if you honestly answer how you think you are saved? and how you stay saved?
That was the point of the op and this thread, you came in with lots of verses about your faith as opposed to the faith of Jesus.....
Exactly that's why you take the warning at the end of revelation and take the word for what it says, They are doing that by trying to change what scripture says
To be honest it was like my second day here and i was getting used to the site and reactions i got a few at the same time and was trying to work things out as i was going, sorry if i miss understood you but the timing and what you where saying I thought we where all on the same topic about is it our faith or the faith of Jesus, you obviously brought in other points that where missed at the time, am getting used to the site now
right I can only go on your words, which if i take out the scriptures you post you don't say a lot, but i presumed your our faith verses where in context to the ops the Faith of Jesus
No unless you think your a woman getting stoned it might save your neck, Scripture says we are saved by grace, Happy to post verses
No we are saved by Grace through our faith in the death burial and resurection of Jesus, its quite a big difference, Why do you take Gods grace out of the equation
Yea answered wrong, How can you ignore the grace of God, I think im just getting dragged into a discussion with grace rejecters, how can you possibly leave Gods grace out
look
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Exactly that's why you take the warning at the end of revelation and take the word for what it says, They are doing that by trying to change what scripture says
To be honest it was like my second day here and i was getting used to the site and reactions i got a few at the same time and was trying to work things out as i was going, sorry if i miss understood you but the timing and what you where saying I thought we where all on the same topic about is it our faith or the faith of Jesus, you obviously brought in other points that where missed at the time, am getting used to the site now
right I can only go on your words, which if i take out the scriptures you post you don't say a lot, but i presumed your our faith verses where in context to the ops the Faith of Jesus
No unless you think your a woman getting stoned it might save your neck, Scripture says we are saved by grace, Happy to post verses
No we are saved by Grace through our faith in the death burial and resurection of Jesus, its quite a big difference, Why do you take Gods grace out of the equation
Yea answered wrong, How can you ignore the grace of God, I think im just getting dragged into a discussion with grace rejecters, how can you possibly leave Gods grace out
look
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
No, it doesn't mean what you're saying. You're taking the word out of its context and making it mean something the author didn't mean. We know the author meant faith IN Jesus, because he said it in the very next phrase in Gal. 2:16. Here is the quote in the KJV:
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Do you notice that he is equating "the faith of Jesus Christ" with "we have believed in Jesus Christ"? So the only viable interpretation of "the faith of Jesus Christ" is the act of becoming a Christian, and THE FAITH associated with it. There are 42 references in the NT in which "the faith" is used, and it means the set of teachings in which a person who believes it has become a Christian. This is the NT context of that terminology, and is the context of the 2 refs in question (Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 2:9).
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Do you notice that he is equating "the faith of Jesus Christ" with "we have believed in Jesus Christ"? So the only viable interpretation of "the faith of Jesus Christ" is the act of becoming a Christian, and THE FAITH associated with it. There are 42 references in the NT in which "the faith" is used, and it means the set of teachings in which a person who believes it has become a Christian. This is the NT context of that terminology, and is the context of the 2 refs in question (Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 2:9).